Debating. Just one step before argument and duelling. After listening to how this was going, Evan guessed he should state his points too. His points wasn't too clever, but still he guessed the wand topic was not brought up yet. And he'd love to bring it up after all this laws and equality stuff.

Raising his hand, he said "I'd like to say that goblins think they're the owner of everything." Okay, that might be an overstatement. But that was how debates went, didn't it? You just had to exaggerate to impress the jury. Although there was no jury here. Anyways. "Just because you produce something does not make you the owner. We pay you money for your handiwork. Yet you complain about it too and argue." Another 'reason' of them to rebel and disturb people. Humpf.

"Thank you sir. I feel that both sides need to swallow theri pride and give something up. I hope we canall be understanding." he said, looking particulay atthe goblin side, ho looked as though giving something up would be life threatening.

"NO, wizards have not lived by your law. but then again, we are the dominant power. We let you participate in government and make one. Why does it have to be your government or ours? Can't there be one that works in union?" he said imploringly.

"First of all, when i said 'ownership', i was refering to the difference between the philosophies of ownership. Not some crude servatude." he said incredulucly.


"I feel that we can compromise, but we need to be resonable. And you are allowed in governemnt. There is a whole division in the Ministry that lets your kind work and even particiapte if they don't work there. Again, working together would be best. We CAN have one governemnt that works together.!" he said, appealing to both sides.

"Well it sounds to me that all I am hearing is how mush more dominant wizard are to goblins. Is that how we would WORK together? Is that how governmenet works and how we should live." Kay stated. "Slavery was how governement see it? We work hard on the things we make and you think by giving us money for it it's your?" She waved her hands. "That your laws not ours. We believe that when a person dies the thing go back to the person who made them. You don't." She was really trying to get her point across. "Just like the Gryffindor Sword!" oh, Harry would not be happy about that statement.

Oooh how Evan'd love to slap answer Kay. He grinned evilly. "I think," he started slowly to annoy more like bad men did in movies to try the others' patience. "our problem is not whose law it is, but how to improve it. We just can't search like mad to find who produced something after the owner dies, can we? You too own things, and why not pass it to a member of your family? Fair enough, isn't it? Not to mention we do appreciate your hard work by money. You can buy other things with money." Eye roll. He seriously could never understand why they make it such big deal. He seriously wondered what would happen when both of the owner and producer died, the object would stay unowned? What a waste that would be. Or how about food? They had to include everything, didn't they? So if they went with their line of 'law', they had to return food, money, even clothes. Which brought them back to the problem of how to find who the producer was. Though he doubted all this ideas would be relevant. Better to keep them to himself.

"And you don't seem to suggest anything at all, but again merely argue. Do you have any solutions to problems?" Not that they were problem to him. Just complains of goblins.

Was this goblin Kay serious? "You may work hard on the things that you produce but we do pay you for them. You say the item should go back to you when the owner dies just because you made it. Well if that is the case then I think the money we pay you should go back to the owners family when they die. We work just as hard for our money as you do when you make things. If you want your items back, you need to buy them back from us." Yes, that sounded like a good suggestion to the problem at hand. If the goblins were willing to buy the item back then they could have it. If they didn't want to give up the money then the item would stay with the owners family.
"I also have to agree with Evan, we can't just go around looking for the goblin that made an item just because they want it back. It was bought and paid for, it is now the families to keep." Marie looked over at Evan and smiled. "Let's see what kind of complaint she comes up with now" she whispered to him so no one could hear her.

"Do you even know what you are saying? I am merly saying that you cannot expect us to bend over when you live in a wizard society, and though we DO let you particiapate in government, you must accpet some wizard laws and not only be stuborn and uncompromising. And what did you mean by 'slavery is how governemnt see it'?" he asked. "That made abolutly no sense. and for the last time, we KNOW WHAT YOUR BELEIF IS! Many many many people have already told us this, but we are not going subject to your demand. Please come up with a soultion or do not hamper this converstion with complaining. Complaining is how that last couple of confrences broke up. Please particiapte activly!" he said, regaining his breath.

"What we need to do is brain storm. For instance, we could keep the wizard philosophy of ownership, but raise prices and open commerce up. Let goblins keep wizard tings too....... and I have a question. How does your 'lending' theroy work when i sell you food for or clothes. Are you going to regergate the food and bury your dead naked, as to give back the clothes?" he asked, wondering how thwey got past this dilema.

Being part of the goblin side of the room and hearing some discussion she decided it was about time she said some thing and retorted the young Slytherin girls point saying, "When goblins sell things that they make they are selling it to just that person, not there future generations. After the previous buyer dies it must be returned to it's maker and if they want the goblin made item they must pay for it as well, if not they are stealing, that is just how goblins do things, it's part of our culture.".

Why did so many people rattle off that fact. If he heard the offical goblin philosophy on ownership one more time.....

"We are more than well aware of how the goblins do it, having been told by 19 of your collegues. But they issue is compromise. We don't need goblins just saying, 'this is how we do it, so thats how we will always do it becasue we are super-amazing goblins'. Thats all i've heard all day. We need compromise and we need soulution!" he said, beggin someone to have an ounce of reason.

Bella sat in her seat, a little too scared to speak out, not wanting to draw attention to herself too much. She was completely on the Wizards side, yes, but she didnt know how she was going to tell the others, making it into a speech worth listening to. She thought as she listened to the others speak before her.

Sapphyre looked at her notes on her parchment, the reason at the bottom

Quote:

Wizards
Goblins do not accept the human standards that witxhes and wizards live by, and we do not accept theirs. This is why we can't get along, and why there have been fights throughout all of time. It is neither's fault, but mere overlooking and stubornness one's own beliefs. It is the same concept of religious wars, mostly amongst muggles, and is only pointless violence. It is not the fault of either race, and cannot be blamed on one reason, but many.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herminny

Being part of the goblin side of the room and hearing some discussion she decided it was about time she said some thing and retorted the young Slytherin girls point saying, "When goblins sell things that they make they are selling it to just that person, not there future generations. After the previous buyer dies it must be returned to it's maker and if they want the goblin made item they must pay for it as well, if not they are stealing, that is just how goblins do things, it's part of our culture.".

"But that's your culture," Sapphyre responed. "Ours is exactly the opposite. What one of us buys is given in will. We do not believe in the exchange that goblins do. We bought it with good money, and that makes it ours to keep. Your morlas clash with ours. And, I think that, if we do business, then we should accept each other's moral code. You goblins sell to witches and wizards, we keep it and pass it on to those we wish to, not to return it. Or, perhaps, we work out a deal, and it is stated to every witch, wizard, or other sentient being, besides goblins, since they know their own beliefs, that they must return the item they buy to goblins when they die. If you do not verify this, then you can't blame us. There are ignorant witches and wizards, just as there are ignorant of your kind... or of any other kind. You can not take it for granted that all of us understand. And if you're selling something for one lifetime, then lower the price, or offer more lifetimes. Wizards buy to keep."

Quote:

Originally Posted by quidditch_captain

Why did so many people rattle off that fact. If he heard the offical goblin philosophy on ownership one more time.....

"We are more than well aware of how the goblins do it, having been told by 19 of your collegues. But they issue is compromise. We don't need goblins just saying, 'this is how we do it, so thats how we will always do it becasue we are super-amazing goblins'. Thats all i've heard all day. We need compromise and we need soulution!" he said, beggin someone to have an ounce of reason.

"Exactly!" Sapphyre cried out, surprised at her own loudness. "Just as I said, goblins and wizards must establish a compromise that encompasses all trade for any of this to ever be settled! Because we have different beliefs, we fight. But that's just the opposite of what's supposed to happen... Different view points can further society. But only if those with different opinions work together to form a solution. Without that, fighting like what happened in the past will always haunt our history books, no matter how far into the future we look."

Good! The discussion started! Nina was ready to jump in on the wizard's side.

"Okay. So I think the best thing to do would list each sides complaint. Discuss why each side doesn't want to cooperate with the other. Then we can solve the problems and come to an agreement. Like a peace treaty."

Not that she wanted to look like a know-it-all. But that just seemed like the logical thing to do. State the problem. Fix the problem. There's no need for arguing over and over about the same subject. Nothing would ever get solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by live1laugh2love7

Good! The discussion started! Nina was ready to jump in on the wizard's side.

"Okay. So I think the best thing to do would list each sides complaint. Discuss why each side doesn't want to cooperate with the other. Then we can solve the problems and come to an agreement. Like a peace treaty."

Not that she wanted to look like a know-it-all. But that just seemed like the logical thing to do. State the problem. Fix the problem. There's no need for arguing over and over about the same subject. Nothing would ever get solved.

Sapphyre grimaced a bit, but complied nonetheless. "We don't agree on property rights," she replied, as if it wasn't obvious. "There should be a compromise between that. And... all past disagreements should be forgiven on both ends. We don't need guilt hanging over either our heads."

Yes, obviously.

"Well then why don't we hear from one goblin and one wizard what their definition of ownership is. Then we can rework a new one that we can both agree too. Maybe.."

Maybe. Nina should have kept that word in her head. She needed to sound more confident. But hey, someone did listen to her idea.

Mina sat back and listened to all the points both sides were addressing. Everyone made valid points to support their concerns, but all the arguing wasn't getting them any where.

Jotting down points from both sides, she decided to voice her opinion as well. It was similar to the others but she wanted to add her two cents anyway. "Clearly both sides are acting on prejudices against each other. Goblins want to be treated as equal, yet they hardly treat Wizards with the same respect. If one wanted to be treated as an equal, one must treat the other as such. Acting as you lot are so much better than us, wizards is only going to be met with hostility. Wizards have our own culture as well and it isn't like you, Goblins are making an attempt to learn our culture. So, why is it we have to adhere to yours with regard to the purchase of Goblin-made items? Most wizards pay for services rendered and in their minds what they buy is theirs to do as they please. It's part of our culture to leave our possessions to our families. If you can't make an attempt to adhere to our culture, then why must we."

There was a need for compromise but it was becoming clear most of the people involved wanted was to argue.

Stop trying to be so middle ground and stand by your side's view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by live1laugh2love7

Yes, obviously.

"Well then why don't we hear from one goblin and one wizard what their definition of ownership is. Then we can rework a new one that we can both agree too. Maybe.."

Maybe. Nina should have kept that word in her head. She needed to sound more confident. But hey, someone did listen to her idea.

"When a witch or wizard buys something, they buy it for keeps," Sapphyre said, playing along with restating what they all already knew. "We believe that our money buys it for good, and they possess it for all of their life. They also expect it to belong to whoever they pass it off in their will to next, because the galleons we pay for goblin objects, as well as other objects, we believe, makes it solely our own."

Nina listened intently. She loved debating and discussing.

"Good point. We do have our own cultures. But isn't the whole world consisted of different cultures. And we have learned to co-exist. I think us wizards need to see more eye to eye with goblins. They are of equal intelligence and have proven that. Why must we have a goblin v. wizard conflict?"

Yes. Her means of working through the situation were catching on.

"Okay, so we have the wizards side.. What do goblin's believe ownership is?"

Mina nodded and listen. She did agree with the fact that both sides needed to meet eye to eye, but who would really listen?

"Yes, the world does consist of different cultures, but different cultures are making the attempt to learn each other's culture. An attempt is actually seen, but is an attempt really being seen in the case of the goblins? I'm not saying that Goblins are beneath us, but if they want to be treated as equals, they must give us the same respect. They come at us with an air of superiority and we meet them with hostility as they meet us with the same. Yes, there is a need to meet eye to eye. But if neither side is willing to show the slightest attempt to accommodate the others culture, then it appears this goblin vs. wizard conflict is going to continue."

Was it even possible to meet in the middle for either side. Both sides did seem to be set in their ways to begin with.

"Well, spoken. I am in complete agreement. owwhat we need to do, like i already said, is throw around ideas and cme to an agreemant. Are there any goblins that don't want to shut us out the moment we speak?" he asked, in a somewhat rhetorical, but most serious qustion. He looked around for an answer.

Nymphy sighed. "We are, but we got snagged on this issue and are noe resolving it. Once we deal with the issue at hand, THEN we can move on." he said exasperatedly.

"That is a great point, one that I have tried to explain already, and was not reseived by the opposing side. Let us hope that your eloquence can get through their skulls." he said, only a small not of frustration in his voice.

"Alright, everyone. I am proposing a 'Goblin Ownership and Rights Compromise'. Let us accept the wizard philosophy of ownership, BUT tax a person's will. If any goblin artifacs are in the will, than a small tax would be collected and given to the goblin maker. That way, the goblin gets a small bit of money every time it passes hands. Therefore, the goblins get reparations for the item, and the wizards can keep thier item. How about that?" he said, rather than asked. He stood up at these final words, tying give off a feel of power and help everyone come to an agreemant.

Okay.

"Okay, we can't fight on the same side. But why are we classifying each other as 'goblins' and 'wizards'. We're all individuals. So we cannot assume that all goblins have treated us with superiority and disrespect. If we just found one goblin to have a civilized conversation with and convinced them that we could work this out, they can more easily convince their friends than we can. Thus the idea would spread..."

And so on and so forth. Wasn't the answer simple? Who'da thunk it.

Oh my goodness.

"Well there you go, putting goblins down right away."

Nina could tell he was passionate. But was it passion for the topic or showing off to get a good grade?

"And obviously goblins don't want money. Don't you think someone in the past would have suggested that already? They want what they consider 'theirs' not royalties because a wizard who, in their mind stole or borrowed the object, died. They could care less."

Dani was getting frustrated listening to the other students argue. "So it's okay for people to own House Elves but you're arguing that Goblins need more respect?" She huffed. "House Elves are treated so much worse. It's disgusting really. And I bet some of you arguing for the rights of other creatures are owners of House Elves. So pardon me if I don't fight that hard for Goblin rights. At least they have a few." The whole wizarding community tended to anger her when it came to the rights of other creatures.

The discussion was meant to be about Gioblins, but she was frustrated.

"It's not that simple. Goblins are Goblins and Wizards are wizards. Look at us, we are not the same species. Wizards classify us as beings. There is a history of mistrust and mistreatment that has been going on for generations. I'm not sure if we can even agree on where to begin. Prehaps we should start with the basics. Wizards, what is about goblins that you do not like- and please let's keep things like ownership of items out of the dicussion. We need to look at each other as being to being. Wizard's classify beings as creatures who can communicate intelligently, so wizards and goblins should be on the same page."

This class is crazy! Where's the teacher to intervene?

"No one said anything against house elves. And in case you haven't noticed, we're only mentioning goblin rights because that is what we're discussing. When we come to a house elf rights discussion, don't assume you're the only one on their side."

Really?? This girl almost disgusted Nina. Pay attention in class will you.

Okay Nina was calming down.

"I don't think it's the fact that we are different species that's bothering us though. It's our opinion that is why we can't agree. And the biggest controversial issue is ownership. That's why I suggested we talk about it."

She said calmly. She didn't want to unintentionally offend a student. Or cause them to not like her. She was friendly to everyone no matter what. She only wanted the same in return.

Listening to everyone speak, Evelyn snickered slightly, seeing as this looked as if it was going to just turn into a full blown argument. She completely disagreed with the whole tax thing someone spoke about, and something about house elves being treated poorly? For one, there was no way that any wizard or witch would agree to paying a goblin for something that they ALREADY paid for, and two, she was an owner of a house elf. Two in fact, and she thought they were treated quite well. As far as house elves were treated though..

Sighing, and rolling her eyes, she took out her History of Magic notebook and wrote down a few things, having a feeling that this is what homework was going to be on. Ugh. Homework. And she still had to do, how much more?

Dani eyed the girl. "I just think it's ridiculous to argue the rights of creatures who already have rights when so many don't have any at all." She thought for a moment. "Not that the rights they have matter anyway. They're still viewed as subhuman. I mean really what makes us so much better than them? I think they'd have more rights if wizards weren't scared of what they'd do without restriction. People are so scared that we might not be the superior race. It's even more ridiculous than this stupid discussion."

She stopped for a moment to catch her breath. "Everyone is talking in circles. People will believe what they want to believe, regardless of what you, me, or anyone else says. And meanwhile 'creatures' are being treated like they don't deserve good treatment."

Nina turned her attention back to THAT girl.

"Well, unfortunately for you, goblins is the class topic and discussion. Start a minority species club if you want."