Satine hurried into the HoM classroom and read the directions on the board. Instantly, she was stressed and really really stressed....She thought...A debate...I'm not good at debates...I'm too nice and I'm interested in everyone's opinions and o no my final grade will not be a good one...

Her eyes were huge as she sat and pondered which stand she was going to take....she knew it was going to be on on the side of the elves, but she wasn't sure which one yet. She pulled out a sheet of parchment and her favorite and lucky butterfly silk purple quill and started working on her opening statement.....

This was the first class she had ever been nervous for...dang it...she was too nice for debating.....

Public speaking... It was only going to be in front of her classmates, so it was not even that public, but Kiri was still nervous. The podium at the front of the room made everything worse. Because of it, the debate setting looked much more serious and official. But it was a final exam, she'd studied hard - and even though the side Kiri had picked was not one she necessarily supported, it was nevertheless going to be an interesting thought experiment. Thinking, Kiri had gathered, was high on the list for Professor Truebridge.

She'd prepared some notes, too, and very nervously, she got up and walked to the front of the room on shaky legs. The floor didn't seem to want to cooperate, either. It felt like she was walking on rubber. Only when she reached the podium had it solidified like it was supposed to. The podium itself, however, didn't help much. It was big. Kiri was barely able to peer over the top of it. If she had to stand on tiptoe...
She put down her notes and flattened them carefully. Grabbing the podium's sides for support, she looked up at the other students - and the professor in the back - and began.

"Er... h-hi," she stammered. "I'm Kiri, and... and I'm representing witches and wizards who do not support house-elf rights. I, erm, realise that... sounds very harsh, but we think there are good reasons for it." She looked at her notes, trying to remember to breathe. "F-first, though, I want to stress that... that we, um, do think that house-elves should not be mistreated. It, it is probably safe to say that they are creatures with feelings of their own, and not mindless tools. Um, but..." Kiri glanced at her notes again, "but we think it is up to the individual witch or wizard to decide about this. House-elves are our servants. They are even called house-elves, after all. They work for us, and we think that most of them are happy with how things are run. You have heard the elves here at Hogwarts. They don't want wages, or... or holidays. They are insulted, in fact, if we, er, offer that to them. We had an expert on it right here in class who said the same things.
"And as much as they work for us, we also take care of them. Because they are not mindless tools - if the house-elves themselves are fine with the, er... status quo," Kiri said, a little proud she'd been able to keep that word in mind, "then it is immoral for groups such as S.P.E.W. to go against their wishes and try to force freedom on them. Or wages or days off or other things that are, we think, human. They are not meant for elves. Erm... thank you."

She was done. Kiri collected her notes and walked back to her seat.

Copernicus Kettleburn might not be particularly adept at public speaking, but he was by no means a total failure. It was something he'd simply always had to do as the child of a diplomat. He studied his notes and listened carefully as the girl before him spoke passionately on behalf of wizards who liked the status quo.

It was a position he'd considered taking, actually. The key to a good debate was having people covering both sides, and he assumed most of his classmates would want to be pro-elf. Obviously that meant a few of them would have to man-up and take the other viewpoint. Kiri took the most unpopular, so Cope took her side... with a twist, of course.

He always was one to play devil's advocate to force other people to think outside their box.

Cope stood next. "My name is Copernicus Kettleburn, and I speak today on behalf of the house elves. For all that our excellent debate over the years has centered on the rights and privileges of the elves, it seems to me that perhaps we are ignoring one very crucial aspect of the debate... what do the house elves want?"

He paused, letting the question sink in before continuing on with his point. "How very selfish and self-serving of us as wizards and witches to assume that we know best, and that the rights and responsibilities we demand for ourselves are the very same rights that a house elf would want. How egotistical we are to speak for creatures with mouths and minds to do so. I challenge every person in this room to go to take a poll of house elves, and I assure you that resoundingly, we will hear they don't seek change. They don't demand rights. As my classmate stated, obviously we must provide certain basic standards of care for our house elf population, but if we are truly giving them what they want... then we would leave the house elves alone to complete the mission they have set so clearly for themselves. Thank you."

Chris listened as the Slytherin girl explainedher stance on how House-elves were supposed to help witches and wizards that they were their servants. "Well, Kiri is it? Although it is the nature of house-elves to serve witches and wizards it still is not the wish of all of them. Take probobly the most famous House-elf, Dobby, for example. He was treated unfairly by his masters and decided to stand up to them by helping Harry Potter. This shows that serving us is not the ideal life for all House-elves. Im not saying all House elves need to quit their jobs, im just saying as I am representing HOuse Elves that want change, that if there are certain house elves who no longer want to be servants they should be able to be Imancipated from their masters, its only fair since they are as you said,'creatures with feelings of their own'." he quoted her to get the main point of his down. "And any other House Elf wishing to stay in their employment should be allowed because House Elves should have their right to choose freedom or service. Pay or no pay." He he finished his rebutal and waited for someone to respond.

Oooh. Public speaking. Vanessa was kind of good at this. As two of the students in the class spoke, Vannie looked down at her notes, making sure that she had written down everything that she wanted to. After they had finished speaking, she made her way to the front of the class, ready to speak.

"Hey Guys. I'm Vanessa Corbette, and I'm going to be speaking about how House Elves are happy with the way things are." She smiled at them. Okay this was a little daunting. She glanced down at her notes again, looking at the first point on the list. "I believe that most house elves are happy with what they are doing, the majority most likely. For example the hogwarts house elves have been here in the class for a large number for years. The house elves were placed here by Helga Hufflepuff, the founder of the hufflepuff house, and she arranged for the house elves to work in the kitchens of Hogwarts where they would be safe from being mistreated or abused. I think that in the time that Helga Hufflepuff was alive this would have been a very good contract for the house elves, as they would have a safe home, where they were able to work, without having the to live in fear."

Vannie took a breath, before carrying on. "Another point to back up this previous one is that the House elves are still here, many years after Helga Hufflepuff arranged for them to work here. Does that not show that the house elves are happy to work here, that they are being treated properly? Surely if they were not happy they may have spoken and told someone about it?" She nodded, folding up her paper of notes, and looking at the final one.

"Finally, from what I have read Albus Dumbledore, a previous headmaster of Hogwarts offered the house elves that worked in the kitchens of Hogwarts wages...which shows that someone did care about the well being of the house elves. I believe that there may be more people like Dumbledore in the world, who are willing to help the house elves.
Overall I believe that in someways the house elves, not just the ones at Hogwarts, may be happy with the way things are, and it could be dangerous if things changed. Just imagine what would happen to the Hogwarts House Elves if they left Hogwarts..."

A debate?

That meant they had to talk.. to the class. ACK. Cue the sweaty hands and stomach churning. Public speaking wasn't his thing.. the Prefects that had been in those meetings they'd had would know that.

GULP.

"Uh.. I'm - I'm Clifford.. Clifford Carden.." Duh, he was the Head Boy, most people knew who he was anyway. Bleh. "And uh.. I think.. I think we should just leave the house elves alone. Right, see they're beings, ain't they? They're intelligent creatures.. and... they know what they want.. and they're happy."

At least, every single house elf he'd come across was happy. They seemed to enjoy serving people.. it was just what they did. "It's the people who are trying to set 'em free when they don't wanna be free that are upsetting them.. like Kiwi said.

"So yeah, they're happy.. they make FANTABULOUS food.. and I think we should let them be."

The end.

OOC: I apologise for the length. >.<

Kiri had been expecting it, but even though, she was a little surprised at how quickly someone had risen in opposition to the point of view she was representing. As her classmates talked, she took some hasty notes so she would have something to refer to when it was time for her own rebuttal.
Which was now. She stood up and walked slowly to the front of the class, trying to structure the arguments in her mind. When she passed Clifford, she dropped a small piece of parchment on his desk.
KiRi, it said simply, followed by a winking face, the R underlined several times.

She had delivered her opening statement successfully, so she felt a little more confident when she stepped up to the podium a second time.
"Just, um, a few things I'd like to address," she said, looking at her notes. There were only a few densely scribbled lines on the parchment. That was hardly enough! She felt the nervousness rush back - it made it difficult to think. She sought for an easy point to begin. Ah, yes.

"First, about the, er, option of letting the house-elves decide for themselves." She smiled self-consciously at the Ravenclaw who'd brought it up, feeling more nervous still. He was much older and smarter than she was, how could she try and argue with him!?
"I... think that, in most aspects, there's a lot of... common ground? But the reason we are saying it should not be left to the house-elves is because we are, in the end, living in a human society. It has been shaped by a long time to be the way it is. Although, of course, as several people have said, even if it the elv... the house-elves were given a choice, they wouldn't change anything."

Kiri shuffled her papers to gain a few moments' time to get her thoughts in order. "Now, about what, er..." she tried frantically to remember the Gryffindor boy's name, "Chris? Right? What you said..." Check notes. "I've read about Dobby, yes, but he's one out of how many house-elves? Compared to him, there are dozens, hundreds of other elves who do not want the situation to change. In fact, Dobby, at the time he was working in this school, um, alienated all the other elves because he wanted wages and holidays. They were angry with him and the students who tried to set them free. It insulted them! They refused to work in your common room. For people on our side, it's confusing how you can say it's for the best of the elves when they themselves become so upset by it.
"We made..." A small note on the parchment caught her eye. "Erm, sorry," she amended hastily, blushing, "something else about Dobby. He abandoned his masters. If he was right in doing so is probably a debate in itself, so I just want to say that when he did it, he punished himself. What he had done went against his identity as a house-elf, and you can see how much that troubled him. As I was going to say, we made the house-elves into what they are. Over a very long time. As such, they're our responsibility, and we probably know what's best for them. If a witch or wizard wants to pay their house-elf, they can do that, of course. But they should know they'll probably offend their elf very much."

Kiri picked up her papers. "Dobby is, I think, more of an example of what can happen if we do not treat the house-elves right. If we act that cruelly towards them that they have to do something that basically goes against their own being, like Dobby, then it's perhaps our own fault. But it doesn't mean we should force human ideas and choices on our elves. Thank you."

She sat down again. Her throat was very dry by now.

If nothing else, Anna Greingoth was a talker. She always had been and probably always would be. This sort of final exam was pretty much right up her alley, so to speak. She sat still and quiet and listened as a few of her classmates spoke on various viewpoints concerning house elves. Earlier, she'd decided to speak on house elves who are happy with the way things are, but as the debates progressed, she'd quickly changed her mind. House elves who want change, it was. She had a few ideas in mind, and as she listened to Kiri speak, she decided that she'd probably just go ahead and take her turn next. May as well get part of this over with.

As Kiri's speech came to an end, Anna stood and made her way to that podium in the front of the room. Did she really need to introduce herself? She felt kind of odd doing so, since just about everyone in the room already knew her. Nevertheless, if doing so made her speech seem professional and cool, she'd do it. "Hi, I'm Anna Greingoth, and I'm speaking on behalf of house elves that want change. My concern is that most, if not all, house elves secretly feel as if change is needed, but due to the status that has been placed upon them, they are afraid to speak up and say so," she said.

"From what I can tell, house elves are very aware of the fact that they are seen as creatures who exist only to serve. They are taught to punish themselves when they do wrong or go against the will of their master. I'm afraid that often times house elves push their true feelings aside out of fear of disobeying their masters," she continued. "Not all masters are harsh and cruel, but even still, house elves don't wish to defy any of them at all. What if some or all house elves want change, but they are afraid of speaking up and possibly having to punish themselves for taking a stand? It's possible that there are elves out there, like the great Dobby, who wish for a way out. Perhaps we could implement a way for them to share their feelings without the fear of being punished. We just might find that some of them don't wish to feed us, clean up after us, or wait on us hand and foot."

Chris listened and nodded as his fellow Prefect talked about how the house elves enjoyed working at Hogwarts and he nodded. He stepped forward and waited until she was finished before he spoke. “Yes, that is more or less correct for most house elves. Hogwarts is a safe place for them to work and live thanks to Helga Hufflepuff, Albus Dumbledore and countless other great wizards and witches. But the problem with this is that not all house-elves work here, let alone a suitable, healthy environment. Some house-elves still live in squalor and as Anna pointed out,” he gestured to his fellow Gryffindor, “are too afraid to speak up. As magical beings House-Elves should have the right to speak up for change that is needed."

Chris waited and then heard the Kiri girl commenting on his first rebuttal. “Well the problem with your view on the situation is that just because the majority of Elves are ok with the way things are, does that make it ok for us to push away those that need our help? That isn’t fair. I mean think of it this way. A few students are failing in a class but the majority of the students are passing, so is it right for the teacher to do nothing and let those few fail? No.” he hoped his point was being made.

Vanessa smiled as she listened to Chris. She had to agree with Chris a little, but she also had a view on what he had said. "Yes Chris. What you... and Anna are saying is quite true, but would all the house elves in the wizarding world gain a positive life if the rules and regulations about house elves changed. Yes some house elves might live in poor conditions, in houses where they are forced to do things that they don't want to do, but they still have a roof to live under, surely there situation might be a little worse if they were living out in the wild." Vannie nodded, as she stopped to breath, hoping that what she was saying was making sense.

"As you have said some house elves don't live in a healthy environment. But how can we alone say that. Surely if that environment is the only environment that a house elf has ever seen then surely the house elf wouldn't know better, so maybe it would be happy there. I do think if all house elves had an environment like Hogwarts everything would be much better, but unfortunatly life cannot be that simple. But I do feel that maybe if each house elf was talked to individually then maybe we could find out if that house elf was happy, and from there on we could seek to make the house elve's life happier, and easier."

Satine hated contradicting others...she just really was one of those people that thought everyone had a right to their opinions and it wasn't her job in life to shove her opinions or views down others throats, but this was the final and the only way to pass the class...she swallowed her niceness and decided to take a stand that she didn't necessarily agreed with but that no one had taken.

She stood up with her parchment in hand,

"I'm Satine and I'm going to represent an organization that hasn't been defended or given their two cents yet. I'm representing SPEW, which many of you know fight for the well-being of house elves and other magical creatures first and also fight for elves to have a say in their freedom, which goes hand in hand with what the advocates for elves staying the way they are have already presented." she paused for a minute and glanced at her notes about the other's comments and then continued.

#1

Satine turned to face Copernicus, whom she had only met once this term...she was very nervous because he was an excellent speaker and his words were almost perfect like from a poem or something...plus she hated confronting people she didn't know because you never knew how they were going to react...she put a smile on her face.

"Copernicus?" she said nodding his way, "You bring up some great points in your comments, but one that bothers me the most is the "leave the house elves along to complete the mission they have set so clearly for themselves." One thing you need to remember is that the elves' mission was set up by wizards ages ago and they have only been conned into thinking that they are here on this earth to serve us in every endeavor that we have through countless decades of having that pushed into their brains...it's an obvious form of brainwashing....so yes, they may today think that their mission is to serve the wizarding community, but we created this issue and it was forced on them decades ago. They know no better and are afraid to stand up against the wizarding society after all of these years. In essence, we created this subservient culture against their will many decades and centuries ago and after so many loses in the battle, the house elves have just succumbed to taking care of our needs and now that's all they know. SPEW is here to help them fully understand their rights and their heritage which hasn't always included servitude." she hoped that sounded okay and not too confusing.

She glanced back down at her notes and swung her glance to her next person on the list.

Public speaking?

Let's admit it, Fyodor Balouch was still an undeniable part of what he called his shy!shell. In other words - you guessed it - he could NOT speak in public. The third year blinked, wondering what he was even doing here, before the thought that there was a final to be not failed brought him back from Planet Shyness, to Hogwarts Castle.

Here went nothing. Or, hopefully, something.

Fyo cleared his throat before he began, telling himself he could do this. "Hello, my name is Fyodor Balouch, and I'm speaking on behalf of house-elves who are happy with the way things are. I believe that, before they take the matter of house-elves in their own hands, humans need to understand the house-elves themselves. We need to come to terms with the fact that house-elves, no matter what the similarities, are not humans."

He paused, before continuing. "I know there are a lot of people who wish all house-elves were treated fairly, but treating an "employee" justly is already the duty of the person in charge of him or her. If an unfortunate house-elf is not treated correctly, that is the fault of the people the elf is serving. To say that, to uplift the lives of a specific group of elves, we need to change our set-up altogether would not be correct, because things can not work out that way: When all is said and done, house-elf rights are not the same as human rights."

"In my opinion, before we take any drastic measures, we humans need to understand who a house-elf is. I am pretty sure no one will argue that house-elves are happy to serve - it is their nature, and to try to change it with notions of "wages and clothes" would only be a torment for them. House-elves don't want fancy clothing, house-elves don't want to be paid. I know that there are many of us - including me - who wished they could be better-dressed and better-returned for their services, but house-elves do not think the same way as humans do. They want love and kindness in return for what they do, not material rewards like humans."

Where has his shy!shell gone? No time to think about that now, or he would probably start stuttering. "Anna, you just said that "It's possible that there are elves out there, like the great Dobby, who wish for a way out." I would like to stress that Dobby was an exception, and not the norm," he said politely. "One can not base one's treatment of an entire race on a single exception - that would be unfair towards the majority."

Breathe. Breathe. Breathe.

He needed to slow down. REALLY slow down.



OOC: To be continued. =]

Jack didn't necessarily have any opinion at all about House Elves...he'd never really had any interaction with any of them, except the ones in school, and they had always seemed happy. Still, he needed to think of SOMETHING for the debate--guhhhhhh, debates. They weren't really his best strength. Now, if they were arguing about whether or not Pluto is really a planet--he would CRUSH everyone.

Noticing that no one seemed to be going up against Anna, he stood and walked to the podium, turning to face her. He cleared his throat. "Erm, hello everyone, my name is Jack Fritzera. While Miss Greingoth brings up some excellent points, I have to say that I disagree with the idea that most house elves want change. If you simply assume that all house elves want change, don't you think there would be at least ONE elf who had the courage to come out and say somthing about it? Years ago, Dobby the house elf was very open about his feelings about being in captivity and many house elves scorned him for it. This proves that, not only do the majority of house elves still feel as though the thought of NOT serving someone is horrific, but also that there ARE some house elves who are willing to stand up for their rights."

"I believe that, if house elves were so unhappy with things today, there would be at least a few willing to stand up and take a stand. But since none of the house elves HAVE argued for their rights, I think it is obvious that they're not unhappy or scared about speaking up, as Miss Greingoth believes." he stated. With that, he stopped and waited for someone to speak against him. Gulp.

That hadn't been SO scary...

Diane listened and watched as other student took the podium stating their reasoning. Since none of the options reflected what she herself thought, maybe she should choose the one that came the closest. After all, it was not a subject she had any intention of being parcial about. Plus, few of them had seemed to share it; that made her choice all the more original.

Thus, when no one took the podium for a while, Diane rose up and, moved to the front. She had no notes with her, and did not seem nervous. "Ehem," she cleared her throat, in the way people usually did when they wanted to get people's attention. Her doing it, though, sounded like mocking those people.

"My group," she began, "S.P.E.W.," she clarified, "has taken the wrong steps in the past. It is as you say, we have not been mindful of what house-elves alledgely want. But we wonder if you are in a position to say you know what their desires are. We wonder what are the undelying intentions in wanting to keep the status quo. We wonder if maybe you are a bit too comfortable with the current accomodations. In other words, we question your good intentions.

"Yes, we have been criticized in the past," she went on, "But it's, nonetheless, a group that has no personal sinister agenda to change social order," again, she put a mock sort of grim tone when she spoke, "but merely wishes to provide for their best interest. Our stand is simple. If you want to take care of your elves, then serve them back."

Cue plain and cute smile.

"Oh yes," she added, turning to one of the house-elf-happy-the-way-things-are student, Vanessa. "You said something... ah, what was it... still have a roof to live under... yes, that if they were left to be, they would be "living out in the wild" was it?" She tilted her head. "I was wondering what would lead you to believe that. It is true that in a wizard-dominated magic world, it is almost impossible to live without human interference -- giants being a good exemption to quote. But what service do we really provide? With the house-elves' evident intelligence, skill with magic and gentle nature, wouldn't they be able to coexist with us existing within their own civilized culture?"


ooc: Continues in another post.

#2

She turned to face the Head Boy, with a smile and continued on.

"Head Boy," she really wasn't sure if she was allowed to call him just Clifford and she had never talked to him before now, so formal would be okay...if not she'd play the firstie card, "SPEW has a policy to help house elves figure out what is best for themselves and how can they decide if freedom is best for them if they have never experienced it and have been brought up in a household that has taught them otherwise. Yes, it would be a shock to their system to have freedom, but just making "Fantabulous food" is not a reason to let the elves stay in places that are harmful to their health and well-being. Every creature deserves to have a choice of their freedom but many elves are kept away from the education or knowledge needed to know what freedom really is and to know how to voice their opinion or when, mainly in house elves' cases, it's safe to voice their opinion on freedom. My mom makes "fantabulous food" but that doesn't mean her choice of freedom should be taken away"

Satine listened and waited to see who her next opponent would be. She sat down and started making notes on her parchment. Wow, she hoped she was debating but not making others mad....fingers crossed...

Copernicus was ready to speak again. He nodded at his classmates who had recently made such interesting points before taking the stand again. "Chris, it's interesting to me that you bring up Dobby. He's the house elf that has been bandied about by everyone on the side seeking change, sort of as a champion or proof that house elves desire freedom."

It was a good argument for the other side, which was why Cope had to methodically tear it down as much as possible. "If we truly look at the relationship Dobby had with his masters throughout history, I think a different picture emerges, however. Dobby did not seek freedom, although he was very much oppressed. Even under the most inhumane of treatment, Dobby did not ask Harry Potter to help free him. That freedom was thrust upon him, and rightly so... we have a moral obligation to take care of all creatures."

"Even after Dobby received his freedom," Cope continued, "he immediately sought a new position. He accepted payment, employment, because there was no other means to bind him to Hogwarts as a house elf now that his bonds to a master were broken, but he accepted those grudgingly. It was his desire to continue to serve. Dobby could have traveled the world, raising awareness for house elves. He could have done any number of things with his freedom. But even Dobby chose to reenter service, despite a terrible previous master. I think that speaks volumes."

Chris nodded as Cope finished his thoughts on what Chris had previously said. He did a great job explaining his views. Chris was searching the short speech as Cope spoke it and found a bit of information to help out his cause.

"Cope you are right that Dobby after being freed, still searched for work at Hogwarts and assisting Harry. But one thing that has just come to me is that you said he could have traveled and raised awareness of House Elves. But really that would be nearly impossible at this time period. Because if you remember what state the Ministry and Wizarding World was at the time. Minister of Magic, Cornelious Fudge, didn't believe Harry potter or Albus Dumbledore about Voldemort's obvious return, and more he didn't even care about Goblin squabbles or centaur riots that were very important at the time. Today Dobby may have had a chance to do what you said, but today's Ministry is much more understanding and there are lots of people that are willing to help the cause." Chris said taking a breath after long speech.

Oooh. Vanessa needed to speak again. Underlining something on her notes, so that she wouldn't forget to say it. Giving the class a small smile, she looked around before speaking.
"Satine...I picked up on something that you had said. About every creature deserves to have a choice in there freedom? And many house elves are kept away from education and knowledge?" Vanessa turned to look at the younger girl, still smiling. "I have to say that I do agree with you, and that every creature does deserve a choice of freedom. But what are we, humans, to decide whether a house elf should have freedom or not. How can we decide whether or not a house elf is happy with serving a family. Yes we might not like the way that some house elves are treated but we cannot decide whether they are happy or not. Also it is right that a house elves should be given rights, and an opinion about their freedom, but if we want to free all house elves, what would happen when a house elf comes up who doesn't want to be free, a house elf that is happy serving. What would happen then? Thats why I think, yes we should take into account a house elf's opinion, but we musn't think about what we want, for what we want might not be what the house elf wants." Vanessa nodded, as she took a deep breath, she wasn't used to all this talking. "In other words. We need to think about who we are doing this to please. To make the house elves live better, or to clear our conscious."

After she had paused, to catch her breath back, Vanessa turned to another student, who had commented on one of earlier points. "Yes. Diane. That is quite true." Vanessa nodded, smiling at the girl before speaking again. "But what I actually meant was what would happen if, for example all the hogwarts House Elves went a lived in the dark forest, an environment where they are not used to. Yes they are intelligent, and have skills with magic, but I'm quite certain, that just like us they would find it hard to cope in an environment like that. House elves, are obviously used to the environment that they live in, which may suggest, that the majority of house elves are happy in what they do. Surely if you put house elves in an environment where they were not used to wouldn't that just make them more unhappy?
I do believe thought that if house elves were put into there own culture that they would be able to thrive and be happy. But this does not say that the house elves are not happy with what they are already doing. Referring back to my other comment, maybe it would be wise to ask the house elves whether they were happy. This would then easily show us wizards the feelings of the house elves, and then we would be able to decide the best way to improve the lives of the house elves.

"But just one more general point which I would like to make is that in the past views on house elves may have been made without consulting the house elves. Obviously house elves, in the past belonged to rich wizarding families who probably thought that it was in there best interest to think and decide what there house elf would do. And also other witches and wizards with power most likely decided what the house elf species should be doing in the wizarding world. But they never thought to see what the house elves thought, and some individuals may still be doing that today. How can we deicde what is best for the house elves if we do not know how they feel. For all we know the house elves may enjoy serving, which means if we changed that, they may no longer be happy. If we in the wizarding world can understand the house elves feelings, whether they are happy or not, then we will probably be a lot closer to maybe changing house elf rights."

Podium time again. Fyo had been listening closely to the ongoing debates, clearly interested. His ears perked up as Diane began to speak - intelligent girl there. He listened attentively, something she said especially catching his attention.

"Diane," he began. "You have said that S.P.E.W merely wishes to provide for the best interest of house-elves and, although I do not doubt that the intentions of the group you represent are good, I would like to ask how you can be so sure that you are, indeed, taking the correct measures to ensure that house-elves are treated properly."

Time to explain what he was trying to say, maybe? "Hermione Granger, founder of S.P.E.W, is known for having freed house-elves by hiding hats and socks in her common room. We also know that, when Ronald Weasley came to know of this, he made sure the house-elves knew what they were picking before they picked it. That way, he gave the house-elves a choice between servitude and freedom, which resulted in two things: one, not a single house-elf chose to free him- or herself; and two, the house-elves of Hogwarts stopped cleaning the Gryffindor common room because the "clothes" offended them. This proves, beyond doubt, that house-elves like to work, and are offended by any thought contrary."

He paused for a breath of air, glad with the way that last point of his had turned out. It was something supported by historical evidence, and he liked backing his say by proof. Anyway, back to the audience now, no?

"I would like to continue with a point I stressed earlier - that Dobby was an exception, and we can not base our treatment of an entire race on a single exception. One may say that some house-elves do not choose freedom because they have already been so oppressed by the Wizarding family they serve, that they have no will of their own left. But the above-mentioned facts make it clear that house-elves feel the same way about freedom, even if they are not oppressed into thinking that servitude is the purpose of their lives - The Hogwarts of Albus Dumbledore's time provided a good environment to its house-elves, and when Hermione Granger began knitting things for them, they had absolute freedom to make a choice in the favour of not working, but none of them made it."

He needed to stop rambling. But there was just so much he had to say on this subject! Fyo paused finally, this time for several seconds. He had a feeling he had just crashed his Shy!Shell for good and proper, but he would think of that later. HappyHappyYAY house-elves, for now.



OOC: To be continued.

Kiri did not take notes this time. The Gryffindor Prefect was done much quicker than she'd expected. Even though she would, in ordinary circumstances, probably agree with some of what he was saying, she was a bit peeved by how little he had to say in response to her own rebuttal. Of course, she might have just been rambling in her statement, but the feeling of annoyance helped suppress her nervousness as she walked up to the podium. She took the parchment with her just so she would have something to focus on. Tucking an errant strand of hair behind her ear, she turned to look at the boy.

"So, you agree then that the house-elves who don't serve their master are... failing?" she asked, raising an eyebrow sardonically. She paused for maximum effect, then continued in a more conciliatory tone of voice. "I'm sorry, I just don't think your example works very well. Maybe the students haven't worked hard enough and that's why they're not passing the class. That wouldn't mean it's the teacher's fault, though. And you wouldn't close the schools because a few students with difficulties, would you?" Kiri shuffled her notes, trying to decide how to continue. The first few sentences had been easy, but now she didn't know how to go on.

"Erm... but we... this isn't about students who have problems in class. I... I mean, we aren't saying that people should be able to treat their house-elves any way they want. In that sense, wizarding society has definitely changed. In the time of, er, Dobby, it might have been an issue, but that was over seventy years ago! We have the Office of House-Elf Relocation now, they check on the elves. And they're doing a good job, wouldn't you agree? We had their Head come in and talk to us.
"But all of that goes back to what I said earlier. First, the house-elves themselves don't want change. Second, we as witches and wizards created the society they are living in. And, in large parts, we made the elves what they are, too. It means they are our servants, yes, but they're also our responsibility. We, I would say, do know best in this case."

Satine stood up and faced Fyo, "The SPEW you are talking about or referring to is decades old. The new SPEW fights to safety of all creatures in their working environments and fights for education of the rights of each creatures. Everyone keeps mentioning that when elves are asked what they prefer they choose servitude over freedom. This simply because they have been brought up in a society of wizards that have never given them a chance to make their own choices. They are not educated in knowing what the real difference between servitude and freedom is. Many elves choose servitude because it is all they know, which is a disservice to them. They also mainly choose servitude out of fear. Fear is a bad driving force for making decisions in your life. It is sad to think that our wizarding community has instilled fear in this elves almost as Voldemort made us make decisions in fear during his time."

She smiled and then sat down hoping that her final point struck some around her.

As soon as Anna took a seat, she saw, out of the corner of her eye, that The Fritzman was now getting up and taking a go at this debate. Poor Jack didn't really seem like the kind to stand up for some kind of cause in a debate, but he was a cool guy, so he should do alright. Besides, she was interested to hear what he had to say...

...that is, until she found out that what he had to say was a speech directed at proving her wrong. Psh. At least he'd called her Miss Greingoth. "That's just it, though. We can't just assume they all want change. We should allow them a safe and protected way to speak their minds without the fear of fellow house elves scorning them, as you mentioned," she responded. "Perhaps one or more of them are willing to speak out about desired changes, but who's to say they have to do this publically? Maybe...ohh, this could be a good way to have a partnership between the elves and S.P.E.W. Maybe S.P.E.W. could provide that safe and protected way for them to let their concerns be heard without making their opinions so public. Maybe a difference could be made without any of the other elves knowing just who spoke up."

-----

A few thoughts crossed her mind, and she left her seat and headed for the podium once again. "I really do believe that we can't just assume house elves do or don't want change. I think we need to consider the option that, like Jack said, some might be scared to speak up due to the fear of fellow house elves scorning them. I previously took a stand and said that the elves do want a change, but I'm honestly leaning a bit away from that viewpoint now. That's not to say that I believe they don't want change, though," she started.

"I've now changed my viewpoint to reflect the thought that the decision should be left up to each and every individual elf. Why do we have to lump them all together? What if some want change and some don't?" she remarked. "We don't lump ourselves as humans into one main category. Take this debate for instance. We all, for the most part, seem to be taking a different stand. We all have different opinions and thoughts, so we have to keep in mind that the same probably applies for the house elves. That's why I think we need a safe and protected way for them to speak up to where they are only addressing a neutral group rather than making their opinions so public."

Clark smiled, listening to the others debating. "SPEW's main goal has always been to provide change for house elves. But some house elves don't want change, and are happy with the way things are. They get job satisfaction...that's the only thing they have to live for. Take into account the story of a house elf named...Winky, I believe. She was given clothes (the way to free a house elf) and she immediatley became self-destructive. The work is their life."

"For house elves, if you take away the work and the 'abuse' that the work provides, you take away their meaning." Cue hankerchief with onion shavings, cue tears.

"Vanessa, that's a very well thought argument you got there," Diane complimented her for no reason at all. She looked happy, and was indeed very impressed with her schoolmates. "Let me see if I can respond to you. You said something about house-elves being happy free does not mean they are not happy with what they are already doing. I would like to respond to you, and I think this can count as a response to Fyodor."

"I'll begin by saying," she said laughing, "By free, I didn't mean, 'living in the wild'. Poor dears, no, just having communities of their own and feel free to come and go as they please - and especially removing the need to punish themselves. In our world, that would more or less constitute our idea of freedom."

She made a mock thinking gesture by putting her fingers together before her.

"I guess another way to look at freedom is to say, by law, we are all equally in our right to act according to what is in our best interest and seek such thing as education and shelter. But the relationship master-house elf is not a relationship of equals. Thus, they are not, by definition, free.

"This has not raised so big an issue because their non-freedom status has, alledgedly, always been what they want. Now, Satine has brought many of my intended points, which will allow us to question where do we trace the origin of this 'willing servitude', and if it is indeed a house-elf idea," she went on, considering a bit of house-elf history she learned. "Or if it is brainwash and fear."

She mmh-ed pensively. "I don't know for certain, to tell you the truth. The history is obscure. Maybe the question should be, can we tell for certain it was not us who brought up this ever so convenient rule?" she considered out loud. "Mmh... Her guess is a likely possibility."

"However," she went on pacing at the front like an old man during a lecture, "Disregarding where and from whom that concept of house-elves valus came to be, you may say it's now part of their culture. And it is true: to tamper with their customs would be a disrespect to their and any culture!

"The question is, should wizards abide by these laws? After all, as we said, these are not -our- laws. Should our respect for their culture so easily transm into acceptance?"

"If we are indeed looking after their best interest, we wouldn't indulge them, no. If we were responsible, we would not allow it, to use an allegory, the same we won't let a child eat so much candy they will end up with a stomachache.

"With a society so closely interlaced with ours, our actions are critical to define theirs - should we continue to accept it, is to say it's right. A common ground has to be reached but our values should not be compromised either. After all, you are worried about the house-elves happiness, right?"

There was a pause where Diane just stood there, raising a hand to scratch her head. "That's not what the house-elves want, they would not be happy being free... Well, can't the house-elves be free AND happy?" she shrugged aloofly.

"I heard the story myself," Diane recalled. "I heard the house-elf Dobby walked around wearing layers and layers of clothes even during summer, rather flamboyantly, even around other house-elves. I think that speaks volumes too."

Her eyes, lit with a smile, lied on the head boy names after the astrologer. Wonders if this constitutes as a response too. (ooc: ?)

"So to the question whether house-elves can be happy being free, the answer would be: yes."

"'Cause, you talk about Dobby the house-elf, but the importance of Dobby's story is not setting a norm but provide an alternative. And the alternative is possible, remember this," she said, again in lecture mode. "His is the biggest of examples because, why, Dobby was free and Dobby wasn't miserable. A culture of free, happy elves is possible-- No, it's favorable."


ooc: ...and it continues... and good thing Satine is backing me up, otherwise this post would be twice as long. Scary, I know.