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astralpictures · #1 (**permalink**) 05-24-2011, 08:30 PM

Before I thought of this topic, I wanted to do some research to see if my thoughts were explained anywhere else. The best description I found on the curse were from here:

Avada Kedavra Curse - Harry Potter Wiki

I was always curious about the Killing Curse, and how it works. It's described in the books as requiring a bit of powerful magic behind it, and the caster must really mean harm if they want it to work (so they must really feel hate and want the person dead). With this description, I had imagined that to produce the curse took a lot out of the caster. Maybe there was a recharge time or something? And it also sounds like only Dark wizards can produce it. The fake Moody (Crouch Jr.) said all of the students could try to use the curse against him and he wouldn't even get a nose bleed. Really?

But then a few things in the book seemed to contradict the idea that it's difficult to produce:

1. Dunces who aren't very magical like Crabbe and Pettigrew were able to produce the curse, removing the idea that you have to be a powerful wizard to use it.

2. Good wizards could use it also. I believe Lupin and Black would have used it against Pettigrew if Harry hadn't intervened. Aurors could use it in the First War against Death Eaters. Also, Lupin criticized Harry in DH for not being prepared to kill, meaning they were all capable of doing it.

3. Snape used it against Dumbledore, and he didn't feel any hate towards him, nor did he truly want him dead. However, it still worked. This seems to contradict the idea that you need to truly hate and want the victim dead. So does that mean it's easier to use than previously thought? Could the students have pointed their wands at fake Moody and killed him with it?

4. My biggest problem is the way Rowle fires Avada Kedavra constantly during the skirmish at Hogwarts during HBP. He just keeps repeating it over and over again. He also seems like an average wizard without major powers, however, he can use the curse as much as he pleases. Wouldn't all Death Eaters do the same thing during a battle? Why even use other curses if you can use Avada Kedavra as much as possible?

I think the curse would have been better designed if it really did take only a very powerful wizard to use it, and it couldn't be shot over and over because it drains the caster.

mlewis · 05-31-2011, 02:40 AM

I've got a question for you on #4 coz I don't remember the book very well right now... I've got to read it again but for now, I thought I would ask: how efficient is Rowles with his curse? Does the book say?

astralpictures · 05-31-2011, 04:44 AM

Honestly, I can't recall exact details. I'm in the process of re-reading the entire series, so I'll pay special attention to that part. All I remember is that Rowle was shooting killing curses everywhere, and only the Felix Felicis that Harry gave to the others protected them from getting hit by it. I believe Rowle did accidentally kill another Death Eater with it too (Gibbon?).

ShrikeMalfoy · 06-04-2011, 02:38 PM

astralpictures,

Some good points there, here's my interpretation.

1. Crabbe and Goyle's use of the curse is made possible because they seem to want to REALLY kill - I'm thinking of the scene in RoR HP7). I'm sure they both have it in them, their lack of intelligence could well be the reason - Not enough brains to find another way.

2. Of course they're capable of using a killing curse - if your family and friends are threatened by evil then you will do everything in your power to protect them - even if it means taking a life.

3. I think that Snape did hate Dumbledore - he hated him for making him use the curse (even as an act of kindness) - I think for a split second Snape's anger at Dumbledore would have leapt to the surface enabling him to kill.

4. Only having a powerful wizard be able to use this spell would be a good idea - but I think what Jo R is getting at is that anyone can kill (unfortunately) - you don't have to have a brain to do it. It's the clever and intelligent ones who don't kill for no reason and only to protect those they love and hold dear.

slytherus · 06-04-2011, 03:03 PM

I can't assure you that what I see is correct. However;

1. I don't think you've to be intelligent to use the Killing Curse. As long as you mean to kill that person, it'd most likely work.

2. Yes, good wizards/witches could also use this curse. They don't use it because they'll get one-way ticket to Azkaban.

3. Do you remember when Snape argued with Dumbledore? Dumbledore somehow forced Snape to kill him & Snape refused. In the end, Snape had to do it. As ShrikeMalfoy said, there must be the moment where Snape's anger for Dumbledore who asked him to kill him took over Snape and causing the Killing Curse to work.

4. I don't think it's the power. Thorfinn Rowle was a Death Eater & I'm sure he really enjoyed killing people. The Killing Curse causes instant (aka painless) death. Most Death Eaters (i.e.: Bellatrix Lestrange) would've enjoyed torturing & causing pain on their enemies better than let them die painlessly.

astralpictures · 06-04-2011, 09:09 PM

While I agree with the power thing, about the curse maybe not requiring a lot of power but only hate and intent behind it, I think Rowling herself made it a bit confusing; when she first introduced Avada Kedavra, she made it sound as if only very powerful wizards could use it.

After re-reading Prisoner of Azkaban, I was reminded of a question I always had: Harry wanted to kill Sirius during their confrontation in the Shrieking Shack. He had hatred, anger, and the intent to kill for a very brief moment. I always wondered how exactly he would have done it with his wand, if he decided to go through with it. This was before the Killing Curse was officially introduced in GoF, and Harry didn't know the incantation. Could he have produced it out of pure anger, much like he blew up his aunt? Or would he have used another method that caused physical damage? You could argue that his inner goodness would never have allowed him to kill (which is true, since he couldn't bring himself to do it). So do you really think he could have potentially killed at that moment, inner goodness aside?

And although I agree that people like Bellatrix liked causing pain, I also thing that they all possessed the Slytherin quality of self-preservation. During a hardcore fight with powerful wizards, I'd think Death Eaters would rather kill and save themselves than mess around. I just think Rowling shouldn't have made it quite as easy to keep repeatedly firing Avada Kedavra. A small complaint, I know.

ShrikeMalfoy · 06-06-2011, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralpictures

While I agree with the power thing, about the curse maybe not requiring a lot of power but only hate and intent behind it, I think Rowling herself made it a bit confusing; when she first introduced Avada Kedavra, she made it sound as if only very powerful wizards could use it.

After re-reading Prisoner of Azkaban, I was reminded of a question I always had: Harry wanted to kill Sirius during their confrontation in the Shrieking Shack. He had hatred, anger, and the intent to kill for a very brief moment. I always wondered how exactly he would have done it with his wand, if he decided to go through with it. This was before the Killing Curse was officially introduced in GoF, and Harry didn't know the incantation. Could he have produced it out of pure anger, much like he blew up his aunt? Or would he have used another method that caused physical damage? You could argue that his inner goodness would never have allowed him to kill (which is true, since he couldn't bring himself to do it). So do you really think he could have potentially killed at that moment, inner goodness aside?

And although I agree that people like Bellatrix liked causing pain, I also thing that they all possessed the Slytherin quality of self-preservation. During a hardcore fight with powerful wizards, I'd think Death Eaters would rather kill and save themselves than mess around. I just think Rowling shouldn't have made it quite as easy to keep repeatedly firing Avada Kedavra. A small complaint, I know.

I quite agree that Rowling made the whole AK curse a little complicated.

I suppose in theory Harry could have done some damage to Sirius - he had after all created magic before he came to Hogwarts (releasing the snake at the zoo, blowing up the aunt and so forth) - I'm not thinking of him actually killing Sirius but I agree there could have been some release of magic....

But yes I also think that Harry wouldn't have killed then even if he knew the killing curse - Harry doesn't strike me as someone who seeks revenge but rather justice.

RawrItsReptar · 06-17-2011, 07:33 PM

I think of it like a gun. anybody can use it but if you do you will be snt to jail

*squidnie* · 07-16-2011, 04:13 AM

Personally, this is what I get out of it.

Anyone who wanted to kill - no matter their intelligence - could use the spell to kill someone. Crabbe and Goyle could produce the spell because they really wanted Harry, Ron, and Hermione to die. Draco (in HBP) couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore. I think that's because some part of him really didn't want to kill. At all.
Snape. I don't think he hated Dumbledore. But I do think he wanted him to die; Dumbledore had explained to him that he needed to die. So Snape did it. He wanted Dumbledore to die because Dumbledore knew he should.

About Harry in PoA... I don't think he could have killed Sirius even if he had known about the curse. I just don't think there's any part of him that wants to kill. His parents were murdered - he didn't want to do that to anyone else.

And yes, I think good guys can use the curse. They don't want to go to Azkaban, though. And I think most of them would rather capture (or something along those lines) the 'bad guys' and make them go to Azkaban, rather than killing them.

Slytherin's Talon · 07-17-2011, 04:33 PM

Good point,but I doubt Snape hated Dumbledore.

RupertsLil'Princess · 07-17-2011, 10:19 PM

Your thinking outside the box too much. Your almost going too far in this matter as to say that your going completely off the subject. And you don't actually know how the characters are feeling. You don't know whether or not they do actually hate the person who they're casting the killing curse at cause your not them.
(not being snotty btw, I'm just expressing my opinion )

Slytherin's Talon · 07-21-2011, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RupertsLil'Princess

Your thinking outside the box too much. Your almost going too far in this matter as to say that your going completely off the subject. And you don't actually know how the characters are feeling. You don't know whether or not they do actually hate the person who they're casting the killing curse at cause your not them.
(not being snotty btw, I'm just expressing my opinion )

I couldn't tell if you were talking to me since you didn't quote, but I assume that since you said that someone had gone off the subject that you are.
No, I didn't. I was replying to a post before mine in this topic. And yes, I think I can tell what someone is fealing, if we can't, then that means Rowling did not do a good job writing the scene. A good writer should be able to express the fealings of a character while writing them. If Snape hated Dumbledore, he would not have killed him.

Sordane · 07-21-2011, 09:13 PM

^ Yeah, Snape didn't hate Dumbledore, he looked up to him. He trusted in Dumbledore's opinion and the only reason he wanted Dumbledore to die was because he was suffering.

MagicSparkle · 07-24-2011, 04:30 AM

I think it should drain some of there power that way they would not be able to use it constantly...

weasleytwinsROCK · 07-24-2011, 08:20 AM

I think you can use it if you have enough skill, you don't have to be a fully trained wizard maybe, but be able to actually cast some spells. I also think you have to have the will to kill the person. Lupin and Sirius could have killed Pettigrew, as they felt he deserved it and were very angry with him. Death eaters can kill, because, that's kinda what they do, but maybe they don't have an urge to kill specifically, but the urge to be close to You-know-who means they kill people.

What Moody/Crouch said about people using the curse on him not working is probably
a) Because not all the students would know enough magic to do it
and b) Because they (thinking it was Moody) had no reason to kill him.

The way Rowle fires the curse. That's kinda stumped me. I have no idea how that works. But maybe he really wants to be powerful and close to You-know-who.

Welshgirl44 · 08-08-2011, 11:29 PM

With regards to 3) I don't think it's the hate behind it, but to quote Bellatrix "You have to mean it" (at least I think that was Bellatrix)...

And because Snape had already arranged Dumbledore's death with him, he did mean it. He knew if Dumbledore hadn't died at his hand, he could possibly have been mutilated at another, or even, Draco could have been mutilated.

I don't think it's the power, but more the state of mind. Death Eaters are all for the kill, it's been instilled into them about this supremacy, and also they'd be scared not to use it I think, thus they have it in them, through fear and need to be able to conjour (sp?) the Avada Kedavra spell.

The Order, on the other hand, are prepared to kill because they despise everything the Death Eaters stand for. They know it's wrong and they know the harm that the Death Eaters have caused to their friends, allies, and often families-it's like a revenge.

weeeee · 08-14-2011, 01:51 AM

I think the reason that person could throw it around was probably because he was in a zone. Like the patronus, that takes a great deal of concentration, but probably with practice you can eventually perform it without needing to collect yourself beforehand.

CelticPagan#3 · 08-17-2011, 10:49 AM

I think anyone can produce the curse, but as with any other spell you try and cast, if you aren't fully focused on getting the end result then the spell/curse isn't going to work. The way see the curse, is it's the wizard version of a gun....if you really want to shoot someone, and moreover shoot to kill, you'll do it. In the same thought process, if you want to use the avada kadavra curse you're gonna do it, whether it's for reasons of hate, revenge, or self-defence. And by the same token, I think anyone is capable, as long as they mean it, they can do it.

DragonBear · 08-17-2011, 04:51 PM

While I agree that most of those are faults with the curse, or at least one or two of them might have been mistakes or continuity errors, I don't agree with the assumption that Crabbe and Goyle shouldn't be able to cast it because they are stupid.

As many have shown, you don't need to be very smart to be powerful. Crabbe was able to conjure a Fiendfyre, so that must add up to something. Of course, He wasn't able to control it, but someone with the ability to cast a spell like that would surely be powerful enough - Purely by natural skill - To cast The Killing Curse. Just my 2 cents.

Adriana :) · 08-17-2011, 07:52 PM

good points! ive never thought about that! its true a lot of people use it!
another thing, i doubt voldie hated everybody he killed so much as to be able to use the curse over and over....some of the people he killed he didnt really know all that well so he couldnt want them dead with all of himself....
i dont know if that makes sence but it does in my head lol (:

AvisPhoenix74 · 08-22-2011, 08:56 PM

Really good points but I think anyone, of any intelligence, could use the killing curse... Even Crabbe and Goyle.

As for Snape and Dumbledore, Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him as it was essential to happen so Snape was willing to do it for Dumbledore even if he truly didn't want to...

Furienna · 10-06-2011, 07:24 PM

Hmmm... This was an interesting thread. I have nothing to add myself though, except that it's interesting how "avada kedavra" wasn't an invention of JKR's, but the origin of the generic spell "abra cadabra".

looney · 03-03-2012, 03:26 PM

I don't think Snape hated Dumbledore nor that he wanted him dead. Dumbledore asked him to and he knew he had to do it, he knew it was for the best. Also, many Death Eaters killed without feeling hate, so I believe you can cast the spell simply by having a motive.

What I always wondered was, why didn't Sirius, Lupin or anybody from the Order ever use Avada Kedavra, merely for self-defence. There has to be a loophole that lets them use it if their life is in danger, right?

Furienna · 03-03-2012, 06:27 PM

You would think so, but I think "good people" usually stay away from the Unforgivables. But I don't know...

astralpictures · 03-04-2012, 05:08 AM

The Aurors most likely had to use it in their job. Crouch gave them authority to use it. It was said of Mad-Eye by Sirius that he never killed if he could help it... which implies he probably did at some point, and he was on the good side.

I still wondered about other spells that kill. Obviously ones like Sectumsempra that cause physical damage can kill, or anything with fire can. Dolohov had the purple spell that might have killed Hermione if he could have said it verbally. But what spell did Molly use on Bellatrix that caused her to die almost instantly? And I still wonder what Harry would have done to Sirius when he wanted to kill him in PoA, since he didn't know Avada Kadavra then, and probably couldn't have pulled it off even if he did know it.

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