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Con_Stripes · 08-02-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaRaRachieee

"Isn't freedom where an individual or anything really is free from restriants, they are independant and can do what ever they want, within reason." Vanessa spoke, whilst raising her hand. Well that's what she thought freedom was anyway. "And didn't Hermione Granger knit scarves and hats, and hid them for the house elves to find them when she first started S.P.E.W. She probably thought that she was looking out for their best interests by freeing them. But I kind of disagree with what she did because she would be have been freeing them even if they didn't want to be freed....which may not have been in their best interest."

"Free from restraints, yes. But within whose reason?" Ethan nodded encouragingly. "Precisely, her intentions were... noble, but her methods were misinformed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho!

Diane raised her hand again. Before answering, she breathed out too sooth her mind. "Freedom is..." For a moment, she paused to find the words. And then she sentenced: "A state of mind."

She took a moment to assess her own words and contiued to say, "Maybe it's the ideal sprouted from contraries: human conscience creats this illusory concept to oppose the feeling of entrapment... The closest to fact is the feeling of being capable of taking decitions that affect your own life fundamentally... thus it can only be attained by eliminating the feeling of owing and belonging."

When Diane thought about it... to be wholy free, what would it imply... the destruction of all emotional ties... a purely destructive feeling.

"A state of mind indeed. Whose mind though? Should the state of the collective human mind be forced on House Elves?" Ethan nodded at the rest of Diane's answer musingly, but did not comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celandine

Cela raised her hand again. "Freedom is when you can live the way you want without restrictions, particularly restrictions that others place on you." And Cela wasn't entirely sure she had that herself. "It's also the opposite of slavery or captivity and if the house elves don't feel they are slaves or captives or whatever, then they don't really need that kind of freedom. In a way, house elves are free because they are living the way they want and doing what they want; helping us. I guess there are a bunch of definitions for the idea of freedom and it really isn't fair to apply the one that works for us to them because our idea of freedom is not the same as a house elf's idea of freedom."

Celandine wrinkled her nose, wondering if she'd made sense.

"I think S.P.E.W should have started by asking the house elves what their idea of elvish welfare actually was, maybe S.P.E.W could have educated instead of advocated. For someone that was supposed to be smart, Hermione Granger did something really uninformed and almost self-serving."

"Certainly, our idea of freedom is not the same as theirs and it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking so. S.P.E.W was founded because of the mistreatment of one elf that did not feel a complusion toward domestic activity and was severely mistreated. Perhaps then, a better goal for S.P.E.W might have been to treat all house elves with respect and allow them to live to their own ideals of freedom."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ama

"Freedom is being able to live, and express yourself fully without worrying about what others may say or do. To live happily in your own skin," ventured to speak the Blond, finger trapped in a curl on the nape of her neck. The other answers had been much more articulate and intricate but there wasn't much she could add that hadn't been said.

It was bad enough that she had been sitting through class with a dumb look on her face. It would be even worse if she proved it to be true, which she could possibly be doing right now. Turning slightly pink she caught sight of Celandine out of the corner of her eye and wrinkled her nose at her.

Ravenclaw Smarts. She had them.

"To live happily in your own skin. Very apt and certainly true. How must it feel to have someone attempt to change your life without bothering to ask about it? Is that not taking away a basic freedom itself?" Truebridge commented a bit rhetorically though he didn't mind if the students answered his questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by druidflower

Insightful. More than she would have expected from a Hufflepuff, but then, Bunny was a Hufflepuff, so there were exceptions.

"Hermione Granger had good intentions and great prejudice," said George, "A Muggleborn witch who hasn't known creatures like house elves before, wouldn't be familiar with the nature of the whole species after briefly meeting just one and under perhaps the worst possible circumstances, and there are some things that you cannot understand just by reading about them especially if you are convinced that the whole race is enslaved as you look for information."

Being a Muggleborn herself she didn't feel prejudiced at all against Muggleborns, it's simply a matter of seeing what you want to see.

"The muggle world has had quite a lot of oppression in its history, and Hermione Granger saw that when she looked at House Elves, rather than creatures who elected to serve because it fulfilled them to do so. So she tried to free them, without giving much consideration to whether they wanted to be free or what they would do if she had succeeded." In some ways, George thought, Hermione Granger wasn't all that smart.

But she was a child.

Then.

Children really don't know how to use their brains.

"House elves aren't slaves, and that particular house elf is punishing himself because you answered your own question," George answered in a tone meant to make the girl feel just as stupid as she obviously was. "Freedom IS a state of mind. Clothes and the lack there of are a symbol, nothing more, and nothing less. Nothing is forcing him to hurt himself. No charm or magical contract. He can stop if he believes he can. He simply doesn't believe it. He might one day."

Now this was a little unexpected.

Could it be that not all students were stupid?

Well George hadn't been, or Bunny, obviously. But this little girl wasn't. And the Hufflepuff wasn't altogether dim either...

"Very, very insightful... sprightly one," George... sorta... praised. "Our definition of freedom is not theirs. Nor is our definition of happiness. I am perfectly happy to never cook, ever. But Schmoop would not be happy if someone would tell him he could never make another cookie."

And the little blonde made another good point. "Hermione Granger did not really, as far as we can tell, come to understand house elves as a species, throughout most of her student years. She didn't, for instance, understand how proud they are, and what they wanted to do, only what she wanted them to do, and wanted them to want to do."

Hmmm...

A little Gryffindor too...

Could she scare the brave house?

"And?" George said harshly, "Do you believe House Elves possess any of these qualities you just described?"

Ethan listened to George offering her... expert input without comment, though he did hope his students were up to the challenge of defending or hopefully expanding their views, regardless of what they were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey Princess

Well she was a little firecracker wasn't she he thought not even able to answer the question but feeling the need to step in so Daphne wouldn't feel all that bad about her answer, which was good he had to admit. "Ma'am, House elves are happy doing what they do. There's always going to be some House Elves who want something more, not that any of the House Elves here do." he moved a look over to Schmoop and Beezley smiling at them before turning his attention back to the woman and saying, "They want to be happy and have fun doing what they love to do. If some wizards feel they don't deserve that then they'll try and do something like S.P.E.W where they'll try and take away the House Elves freedom.

I think the House Elves do deserve more than they get but it's not my call to make, nor is it anyone elses'. If they want something more we should allow them to ask for it themselves, not tell them what they want. No one should be told what they want, nor should they be forced to do something they don't want to do." he stopped, wishing he could crawl into the proverbial hole and hide until she was finished reprimanding him. Instead of cowering away though he sat straighter, his back straight as he looked at her, willing her to say something. It was his words, nothing more and he'd defend them until he turned blue.

"Excellent answer." Ethan nodded at William. The boy was set to do very well on his finals. "Perhaps S.P.E.W should have been formed with house elves as members, if at all."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. Weasley

Abby raises her hands. I believe Hermione Granger had the house elves best interest at heart when she organized S.P.E.W.S. I question the methods behind her good intentions. Hermione wanted to free all the house elves and make them independent beings. To successfully accomplish this, she should have first educated the house elves. They do not understand life outside of the protection of wizards. Basicly house elves have for generations served wizards without complaint. They don't know any other way to live. House elves don't know how to survive on their own."

"Ah, Abby." Ethan held up a finger. "Not all house elves have served without complaint and it certainly is not true that they do not know how to survive on their own, they simply do not want to." He nodded approvingly though, not so much because he agreed, but because she spoke her opinion well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celandine

"It isn't the house elves that need educating, it's wizards and witches. See you are looking at it wrong too, Abby. They don't need to change, people think they need to change because some people, mostly muggleborn and those with muggleborn parents, are uncomfortable with how they help us because they have preconceived ideas about what it means to let a being serve you."

Cela paused and added in a quieter voice, "What it means is that the moral standards people hold themselves to are thrown back in their faces because those people don't agree with the way house elves live and that's the problem. The people that want change want it for themselves so they don't have to come face to face with what they see as a moral dilemma. House elves understand life away from Wizardkind and it isn't something that they want. Out of sight out of mind, right? Why not try looking at it differently?"

Truebridge nodded, agreeing with Celandine. He wondered if Abby had anything to say in response to this. "Abby, do you have thoughts on what Celandine responded to your answer with?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argyle

A house elf pops into the classroom next to the Ministry woman. Argyle carries a stack of library books taller than her. The books sway back and forth until two of them fall off. They are heading right for the Ministry woman's feet. "Argyle is sorry Argyle is so late Master Truebridge. Argyle heard Master Truebridge needs help teaching History of Magic, so Argyle got as many History of Magic books from the library Argyle could carry. Argyle is so sorry Master Truebridge. Argyle has not had time to read all the books, so Argyle does not know a lot of History of Magic. Argyle will try and help the best Argyle can though." Argyle continues to sway back and forth under the weight of the books.

"Thank you Argyle." Truebridge answered gravely, "You are not late, we have only just begun. If you would, perhaps you could hand out those books so that the students can look through them? That would be a big help."

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanialRadFAN01

Chris looked at Professor Truebridge as he thought of his answer and then raised his hand. "Well, professor, wouldn't Freedom be the ability to do and think what you want without being told to do so? And a way that S.P.E.W could have truely supported the house elves would be to be a safe place for those that have been abused and don't want to work can come and find freedom." he nodded.

"It either is or it isn't Chris." Truebridge responded to the way the boy phrased his answer, "More the ability to do and think what you want without being told not to do so. If you want to do something you are told to do, it is closer to encouragement than freedom. And as for S.P.E.W..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celandine

Nodding in agreement with what the Ministry lady was saying, Celandine turned her attention to Chris. "That place is Hogwarts." She paused and added in a quieter voice as if to herself, "Hermione Granger was a Gryffindor too."

"Hogwarts indeed. Hogwarts is a safe place for House elves, though they still want to work. There are very few elves that do not want to work, you will find that even free elves wish to help witches and wizards in some form, Chris."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ama

Her tone had a slight edge to it and Daphne had to remind herself that if she had survived several meetings with a one Willie Crocker there was no need to feel intimidated by anyone. Except, she really was.

If it was a little.

Averting her eyes, she tilted her head slightly as she answered. "What I believe isn't necessarily the truth now is it?" she paused a bit doubtful, lower lip trapped between her teeth. "Some may and some may not. Clearly Dobby wasn't happy with how he was leading his life as a house elf and others were. Some if not most serve others and feel a great sense of gratification out of this. If they're happy doing this I don't see why anyone should---"

And then she was cut short. Pursing her lips, she raised a well groomed brow before she returned to her previous pastime: tugging at a short curl at the nape of her neck.

"Dobby. A free Elf. We will come back to him." Truebridge nodded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho!

The conversation had swayed one way and another and Diane just stayed trying to make sense of it. The world around her was a tad bit frustrating, and a lot more disconcerting. The answer the woman gave her only told her she had understood nothing of what Diane had said. Did people in the magical world really think like this? It's like they have been befooled by their participation in the joint wizarding community.

Diane was lowering her hand but said, "I think a person who tells themselves that a person or creature is happy doing things they themselves detest, is looking for an excuse. It is everybody's nature to look after themselves. It's called the preservation of the ego, and there is none of that in these creatures. I don't know the woman you mentioned, Granger, nor her attempts at freeing elves. But if she went about the wrong way about it, it is still true these creatures look weak and malnourished.

"Can you really tell they have been looking at their own interest in the slightless? I ask you, has generations of people believing it was their place and nature to be enslaved, been right? Maybe they were made believe it was their place... After all, what better enslavement than make believe they chose that on their own. Or they are told that 'they are happy' by their peers, their own, and the people dominating them. I think you are making excuses. I think you fear them."

Diane was blunt about it and did not seem to have any fear written in her face, nor did she flinch holding the woman's gaze. Her subsequent ignoring of the woman may even count as a slight provocation-- "May I address one of them?" she turned to the professor asking for permission before proceeding. "Pardon me, Mr elf, you said your name was Argyle," Diane asked and stated at the same time. She offered the elf a distinctively warm smile. "Tell me, do you get hungry? Have you ever tried wizarding food? Something that you enjoyed, and can you take it any time you want?"

"You have a well-formed opinion." Truebridge noted respectfully, though it was clear he did not share it. Instead he looked to Georgia Mayes, expecting her to take exception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by druidflower

George hissed dangerously.

"Well dear, I certainly hope you are not pursuing a career in my division, because you haven't a chance of getting hired with that perspective," she informed her, tapping her heal. "First, you, like Hermione Granger once did, are seeing things the way you wish to see them. I would wager you yourself are Muggleborn. Not that that makes you less of a witch, but if you are less familiar with House Elves and REFUSE to learn about them, then naturally, you would think that is Wizardkind that chose their place for them and not the other way around. All creatures, and humans DO have a sense of self preservation, but soem are also clever enough to know that we can have help in our self preservation. Just in times when we relied on the barter system, and people traded goods and services, we keep house elves and they care for us, most enjoy the work, and some wizards enjoy the help. Some elves DO wish for more than just to be housed in exchange for their services, and in those instances The Office for House Elf Relocation, which is one of MY offices, handles their needs. This office is in place because House Elves have free will and intelligence and as wizards we don't wish to abandon House Elves who are freed or unhappy in their work if or when it should ever happen.

"As for your observation that house elves are malnourished, house elves are, as a species short, fine boned, and large eyed. Goblins too share some of these characteristics, are they too malnourished?"

George placed her hands on her hips and sneered at the girl. "So you are welcome to address whomever you chose, but do so respectfully, and Merlin help you if you insult any House Elf in this class," she said warningly. "It would be a good start to get Argyle's gender right, she's a female elf."

Well, even though George was a tad abrasive... Ethan was inclined to agree with the body of her response to Diane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suzypants

Simone thought a few moments before answering. A thought quickly came to her and said raised her hand and replied, "Freedom has many different definitions. It can be the rights of a person, being let go from imprisonment, the power to decide what you want to do with out having to deal with laws that prevent you from doing so, the manner of which you speak to someone, the right to enjoy privileges, and so on. In all honesty, sir, freedom is not free." She paused before continuing on with, "As for S.P.E.W., I think that the only way for them to truly support house elves is to let them decide what they want."

"Freedom is not free. Freedom is the state of being free, though sometimes the pursuit of freedom can itself be restricting and restraining, most certainly it can be counter productive if someone is seeking freedom for one who does not want or need it." Truebridge responded with a nod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna Banana

Hmm...the first question sounded pretty simple, but on the other hand, maybe the answer she was thinking of was just too simple. The professor had made it a point to stress that he wanted them to think about their answers. When she finally decided on something she thought sounded pretty good, Anna raised her hand.

"Freedom, to me, is the ability to act and think for yourself without having to answer to another. Freedom to one person may be answering to no one, whereas freedom to another may lie within answering to a number of people. It all depends on what the individual chooses to do. In this case, house elves could be considered free if they choose to follow the orders given to them by another," she answered. "From what I understand, house elves choose to serve another, therefore, they can be considered free."

"The issue with SPEW was that the organization only considered what its members thought was best for the house elves. They never actually considered what the house elves though was best for themselves. If it was best interests SPEW was looking out for, perhaps they could have spoken to the house elves and inquired as to what each of them truly wished to do," she said. "The problem with that, though, is that I don't think the elves would have necessarily always been honest with their answers."

"Thank you, Anna."

Ethan looked at their guests for a moment and continued the lesson, "Moving on for now, though do keep thinking about the idea of freedom -I guarantee it will come in handy later- Can anyone share something they know about house elves as they appear in magical history? Interactions with wizardkind, famous house elves, anything really. I'd like to know what you know."

08-02-2009, 11:46 PM	#85 (permalink)
Con_Stripes Mooncalf Join Date: May 2008 Location: GMT +12 or 13 Posts: 7,031 Hogwarts RPG Name: Oz Thickey Sixth Year Diagon Alley Proprietor: Leon Odessa	maaaaaaassive reply... The Eye of Sauron \| Zan-y \| Snake Charmer Quote: Originally Posted by RaRaRachieee "Isn't freedom where an individual or anything really is free from restriants, they are independant and can do what ever they want, within reason." Vanessa spoke, whilst raising her hand. Well that's what she thought freedom was anyway. "And didn't Hermione Granger knit scarves and hats, and hid them for the house elves to find them when she first started S.P.E.W. She probably thought that she was looking out for their best interests by freeing them. But I kind of disagree with what she did because she would be have been freeing them even if they didn't want to be freed....which may not have been in their best interest." "Free from restraints, yes. But within whose reason?" Ethan nodded encouragingly. "Precisely, her intentions were... noble, but her methods were misinformed." Quote: Originally Posted by She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho! Diane raised her hand again. Before answering, she breathed out too sooth her mind. "Freedom is..." For a moment, she paused to find the words. And then she sentenced: "A state of mind." She took a moment to assess her own words and contiued to say, "Maybe it's the ideal sprouted from contraries: human conscience creats this illusory concept to oppose the feeling of entrapment... The closest to fact is the feeling of being capable of taking decitions that affect your own life fundamentally... thus it can only be attained by eliminating the feeling of owing and belonging." When Diane thought about it... to be wholy free, what would it imply... the destruction of all emotional ties... a purely destructive feeling. "A state of mind indeed. Whose mind though? Should the state of the collective human mind be forced on House Elves?" Ethan nodded at the rest of Diane's answer musingly, but did not comment. Quote: Originally Posted by Celandine Cela raised her hand again. "Freedom is when you can live the way you want without restrictions, particularly restrictions that others place on you." And Cela wasn't entirely sure she had that herself. "It's also the opposite of slavery or captivity and if the house elves don't feel they are slaves or captives or whatever, then they don't really need that kind of freedom. In a way, house elves are free because they are living the way they want and doing what they want; helping us. I guess there are a bunch of definitions for the idea of freedom and it really isn't fair to apply the one that works for us to them because our idea of freedom is not the same as a house elf's idea of freedom." Celandine wrinkled her nose, wondering if she'd made sense. "I think S.P.E.W should have started by asking the house elves what their idea of elvish welfare actually was, maybe S.P.E.W could have educated instead of advocated. For someone that was supposed to be smart, Hermione Granger did something really uninformed and almost self-serving." "Certainly, our idea of freedom is not the same as theirs and it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking so. S.P.E.W was founded because of the mistreatment of one elf that did not feel a complusion toward domestic activity and was severely mistreated. Perhaps then, a better goal for S.P.E.W might have been to treat all house elves with respect and allow them to live to their own ideals of freedom." Quote: Originally Posted by Ama "Freedom is being able to live, and express yourself fully without worrying about what others may say or do. To live happily in your own skin," ventured to speak the Blond, finger trapped in a curl on the nape of her neck. The other answers had been much more articulate and intricate but there wasn't much she could add that hadn't been said. It was bad enough that she had been sitting through class with a dumb look on her face. It would be even worse if she proved it to be true, which she could possibly be doing right now. Turning slightly pink she caught sight of Celandine out of the corner of her eye and wrinkled her nose at her. Ravenclaw Smarts. She had them. "To live happily in your own skin. Very apt and certainly true. How must it feel to have someone attempt to change your life without bothering to ask about it? Is that not taking away a basic freedom itself?" Truebridge commented a bit rhetorically though he didn't mind if the students answered his questions. Quote: Originally Posted by druidflower Insightful. More than she would have expected from a Hufflepuff, but then, Bunny was a Hufflepuff, so there were exceptions. "Hermione Granger had good intentions and great prejudice," said George, "A Muggleborn witch who hasn't known creatures like house elves before, wouldn't be familiar with the nature of the whole species after briefly meeting just one and under perhaps the worst possible circumstances, and there are some things that you cannot understand just by reading about them especially if you are convinced that the whole race is enslaved as you look for information." Being a Muggleborn herself she didn't feel prejudiced at all against Muggleborns, it's simply a matter of seeing what you want to see. "The muggle world has had quite a lot of oppression in its history, and Hermione Granger saw that when she looked at House Elves, rather than creatures who elected to serve because it fulfilled them to do so. So she tried to free them, without giving much consideration to whether they wanted to be free or what they would do if she had succeeded." In some ways, George thought, Hermione Granger wasn't all that smart. But she was a child. Then. Children really don't know how to use their brains. "House elves aren't slaves, and that particular house elf is punishing himself because you answered your own question," George answered in a tone meant to make the girl feel just as stupid as she obviously was. "Freedom IS a state of mind. Clothes and the lack there of are a symbol, nothing more, and nothing less. Nothing is forcing him to hurt himself. No charm or magical contract. He can stop if he believes he can. He simply doesn't believe it. He might one day." Now this was a little unexpected. Could it be that not all students were stupid? Well George hadn't been, or Bunny, obviously. But this little girl wasn't. And the Hufflepuff wasn't altogether dim either... "Very, very insightful... sprightly one," George... sorta... praised. "Our definition of freedom is not theirs. Nor is our definition of happiness. I am perfectly happy to never cook, ever. But Schmoop would not be happy if someone would tell him he could never make another cookie." And the little blonde made another good point. "Hermione Granger did not really, as far as we can tell, come to understand house elves as a species, throughout most of her student years. She didn't, for instance, understand how proud they are, and what they wanted to do, only what she wanted them to do, and wanted them to want to do." Hmmm... A little Gryffindor too... Could she scare the brave house? "And?" George said harshly, "Do you believe House Elves possess any of these qualities you just described?" Ethan listened to George offering her... expert input without comment, though he did hope his students were up to the challenge of defending or hopefully expanding their views, regardless of what they were. Quote: Originally Posted by Monkey Princess Well she was a little firecracker wasn't she he thought not even able to answer the question but feeling the need to step in so Daphne wouldn't feel all that bad about her answer, which was good he had to admit. "Ma'am, House elves are happy doing what they do. There's always going to be some House Elves who want something more, not that any of the House Elves here do." he moved a look over to Schmoop and Beezley smiling at them before turning his attention back to the woman and saying, "They want to be happy and have fun doing what they love to do. If some wizards feel they don't deserve that then they'll try and do something like S.P.E.W where they'll try and take away the House Elves freedom. I think the House Elves do deserve more than they get but it's not my call to make, nor is it anyone elses'. If they want something more we should allow them to ask for it themselves, not tell them what they want. No one should be told what they want, nor should they be forced to do something they don't want to do." he stopped, wishing he could crawl into the proverbial hole and hide until she was finished reprimanding him. Instead of cowering away though he sat straighter, his back straight as he looked at her, willing her to say something. It was his words, nothing more and he'd defend them until he turned blue. "Excellent answer." Ethan nodded at William. The boy was set to do very well on his finals. "Perhaps S.P.E.W should have been formed with house elves as members, if at all." Quote: Originally Posted by Mrs. Weasley Abby raises her hands. I believe Hermione Granger had the house elves best interest at heart when she organized S.P.E.W.S. I question the methods behind her good intentions. Hermione wanted to free all the house elves and make them independent beings. To successfully accomplish this, she should have first educated the house elves. They do not understand life outside of the protection of wizards. Basicly house elves have for generations served wizards without complaint. They don't know any other way to live. House elves don't know how to survive on their own." "Ah, Abby." Ethan held up a finger. "Not all house elves have served without complaint and it certainly is not true that they do not know how to survive on their own, they simply do not want to." He nodded approvingly though, not so much because he agreed, but because she spoke her opinion well. Quote: Originally Posted by Celandine "It isn't the house elves that need educating, it's wizards and witches. See you are looking at it wrong too, Abby. They don't need to change, people think they need to change because some people, mostly muggleborn and those with muggleborn parents, are uncomfortable with how they help us because they have preconceived ideas about what it means to let a being serve you." Cela paused and added in a quieter voice, "What it means is that the moral standards people hold themselves to are thrown back in their faces because those people don't agree with the way house elves live and that's the problem. The people that want change want it for themselves so they don't have to come face to face with what they see as a moral dilemma. House elves understand life away from Wizardkind and it isn't something that they want. Out of sight out of mind, right? Why not try looking at it differently?" Truebridge nodded, agreeing with Celandine. He wondered if Abby had anything to say in response to this. "Abby, do you have thoughts on what Celandine responded to your answer with?" Quote: Originally Posted by Argyle A house elf pops into the classroom next to the Ministry woman. Argyle carries a stack of library books taller than her. The books sway back and forth until two of them fall off. They are heading right for the Ministry woman's feet. "Argyle is sorry Argyle is so late Master Truebridge. Argyle heard Master Truebridge needs help teaching History of Magic, so Argyle got as many History of Magic books from the library Argyle could carry. Argyle is so sorry Master Truebridge. Argyle has not had time to read all the books, so Argyle does not know a lot of History of Magic. Argyle will try and help the best Argyle can though." Argyle continues to sway back and forth under the weight of the books. "Thank you Argyle." Truebridge answered gravely, "You are not late, we have only just begun. If you would, perhaps you could hand out those books so that the students can look through them? That would be a big help." Quote: Originally Posted by DanialRadFAN01 Chris looked at Professor Truebridge as he thought of his answer and then raised his hand. "Well, professor, wouldn't Freedom be the ability to do and think what you want without being told to do so? And a way that S.P.E.W could have truely supported the house elves would be to be a safe place for those that have been abused and don't want to work can come and find freedom." he nodded. "It either is or it isn't Chris." Truebridge responded to the way the boy phrased his answer, "More the ability to do and think what you want without being told not to do so. If you want to do something you are told to do, it is closer to encouragement than freedom. And as for S.P.E.W..." Quote: Originally Posted by Celandine Nodding in agreement with what the Ministry lady was saying, Celandine turned her attention to Chris. "That place is Hogwarts." She paused and added in a quieter voice as if to herself, "Hermione Granger was a Gryffindor too." "Hogwarts indeed. Hogwarts is a safe place for House elves, though they still want to work. There are very few elves that do not want to work, you will find that even free elves wish to help witches and wizards in some form, Chris." Quote: Originally Posted by Ama Her tone had a slight edge to it and Daphne had to remind herself that if she had survived several meetings with a one Willie Crocker there was no need to feel intimidated by anyone. Except, she really was. If it was a little. Averting her eyes, she tilted her head slightly as she answered. "What I believe isn't necessarily the truth now is it?" she paused a bit doubtful, lower lip trapped between her teeth. "Some may and some may not. Clearly Dobby wasn't happy with how he was leading his life as a house elf and others were. Some if not most serve others and feel a great sense of gratification out of this. If they're happy doing this I don't see why anyone should---" And then she was cut short. Pursing her lips, she raised a well groomed brow before she returned to her previous pastime: tugging at a short curl at the nape of her neck. "Dobby. A free Elf. We will come back to him." Truebridge nodded. Quote: Originally Posted by She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho! The conversation had swayed one way and another and Diane just stayed trying to make sense of it. The world around her was a tad bit frustrating, and a lot more disconcerting. The answer the woman gave her only told her she had understood nothing of what Diane had said. Did people in the magical world really think like this? It's like they have been befooled by their participation in the joint wizarding community. Diane was lowering her hand but said, "I think a person who tells themselves that a person or creature is happy doing things they themselves detest, is looking for an excuse. It is everybody's nature to look after themselves. It's called the preservation of the ego, and there is none of that in these creatures. I don't know the woman you mentioned, Granger, nor her attempts at freeing elves. But if she went about the wrong way about it, it is still true these creatures look weak and malnourished. "Can you really tell they have been looking at their own interest in the slightless? I ask you, has generations of people believing it was their place and nature to be enslaved, been right? Maybe they were made believe it was their place... After all, what better enslavement than make believe they chose that on their own. Or they are told that 'they are happy' by their peers, their own, and the people dominating them. I think you are making excuses. I think you fear them." Diane was blunt about it and did not seem to have any fear written in her face, nor did she flinch holding the woman's gaze. Her subsequent ignoring of the woman may even count as a slight provocation-- "May I address one of them?" she turned to the professor asking for permission before proceeding. "Pardon me, Mr elf, you said your name was Argyle," Diane asked and stated at the same time. She offered the elf a distinctively warm smile. "Tell me, do you get hungry? Have you ever tried wizarding food? Something that you enjoyed, and can you take it any time you want?" "You have a well-formed opinion." Truebridge noted respectfully, though it was clear he did not share it. Instead he looked to Georgia Mayes, expecting her to take exception. Quote: Originally Posted by druidflower George hissed dangerously. "Well dear, I certainly hope you are not pursuing a career in my division, because you haven't a chance of getting hired with that perspective," she informed her, tapping her heal. "First, you, like Hermione Granger once did, are seeing things the way you wish to see them. I would wager you yourself are Muggleborn. Not that that makes you less of a witch, but if you are less familiar with House Elves and REFUSE to learn about them, then naturally, you would think that is Wizardkind that chose their place for them and not the other way around. All creatures, and humans DO have a sense of self preservation, but soem are also clever enough to know that we can have help in our self preservation. Just in times when we relied on the barter system, and people traded goods and services, we keep house elves and they care for us, most enjoy the work, and some wizards enjoy the help. Some elves DO wish for more than just to be housed in exchange for their services, and in those instances The Office for House Elf Relocation, which is one of MY offices, handles their needs. This office is in place because House Elves have free will and intelligence and as wizards we don't wish to abandon House Elves who are freed or unhappy in their work if or when it should ever happen. "As for your observation that house elves are malnourished, house elves are, as a species short, fine boned, and large eyed. Goblins too share some of these characteristics, are they too malnourished?" George placed her hands on her hips and sneered at the girl. "So you are welcome to address whomever you chose, but do so respectfully, and Merlin help you if you insult any House Elf in this class," she said warningly. "It would be a good start to get Argyle's gender right, she's a female elf." Well, even though George was a tad abrasive... Ethan was inclined to agree with the body of her response to Diane. Quote: Originally Posted by Suzypants Simone thought a few moments before answering. A thought quickly came to her and said raised her hand and replied, "Freedom has many different definitions. It can be the rights of a person, being let go from imprisonment, the power to decide what you want to do with out having to deal with laws that prevent you from doing so, the manner of which you speak to someone, the right to enjoy privileges, and so on. In all honesty, sir, freedom is not free." She paused before continuing on with, "As for S.P.E.W., I think that the only way for them to truly support house elves is to let them decide what they want." "Freedom is not free. Freedom is the state of being free, though sometimes the pursuit of freedom can itself be restricting and restraining, most certainly it can be counter productive if someone is seeking freedom for one who does not want or need it." Truebridge responded with a nod. Quote: Originally Posted by Anna Banana Hmm...the first question sounded pretty simple, but on the other hand, maybe the answer she was thinking of was just too simple. The professor had made it a point to stress that he wanted them to think about their answers. When she finally decided on something she thought sounded pretty good, Anna raised her hand. "Freedom, to me, is the ability to act and think for yourself without having to answer to another. Freedom to one person may be answering to no one, whereas freedom to another may lie within answering to a number of people. It all depends on what the individual chooses to do. In this case, house elves could be considered free if they choose to follow the orders given to them by another," she answered. "From what I understand, house elves choose to serve another, therefore, they can be considered free." "The issue with SPEW was that the organization only considered what its members thought was best for the house elves. They never actually considered what the house elves though was best for themselves. If it was best interests SPEW was looking out for, perhaps they could have spoken to the house elves and inquired as to what each of them truly wished to do," she said. "The problem with that, though, is that I don't think the elves would have necessarily always been honest with their answers." "Thank you, Anna." Ethan looked at their guests for a moment and continued the lesson, "Moving on for now, though do keep thinking about the idea of freedom -I guarantee it will come in handy later- Can anyone share something they know about house elves as they appear in magical history? Interactions with wizardkind, famous house elves, anything really. I'd like to know what you know."