No, what i am giving you is MY interpretation of what "power" is. Its all based on perception and opinion. Basically, this is what it all comes down too. You can either accept that we agree to disagree or we can simply keep going back and forth which serves no purpose. You believe that Riddle was the most powerful, awesome, knock yourself out. However, when it comes to power i believe more things play into it. So with that, we move on and accept that we have differing opinions. Kosher?

Definition of Power - great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.

Or in Vargaroth's opinion. Emotional control.

My bad, I must've misworded my sentence or forgotten that part from DH. What I meant was that Voldemort probably feared Dumbledore in part because Dumbledore could not (or very rarely would) lose a duel, even though Voldemort did not know this was partly due to Dumbledore's possession of the Elder Wand.

Ditto. A Snape vs. Voldemort duel would've been really cool to see.

Good point there. Love is generally more powerful than the Dark Arts (Lily's love protecting Harry, for example), so Dumbledore's understanding of it makes him stronger/more powerful than Voldemort when it comes to that area.

Don't worry, hun, no one's going to flame you here.

I do have to say that I disagree with you though. Dumbledore, if he wasn't holding back or restraining himself at all, would definitely defeat Snape, though Snape would put up a pretty good fight. They're both very skilled wizards, but Dumbledore has more experience than Snape does, considering Dumbledore was about 78-79 when Snape was born - loads of time to learn many advanced spells, including defeating another very powerful dark wizard named Gellert Grindelwald.

Sure, I can agree with you there. But I also agree with Vargaroth that to be considered the most powerful you have to also know how to use that power. For example, so what if Voldemort could create Fiendfyre if he did not also have the ability to control it and stop it from killing him as well as his intended victim? Dumbledore would be the more powerful of the two if he could control the Fiendfyre. The same applies if Dumbledore could cast Fiendfyre, but Voldemort could control it while Dumbledore cannot.

That is just a hypothetical example, as I have no idea whether Voldemort or Dumbledore could cast/control Fiendfyre since to my knowledge they never do so in the books, but that is essentially the difference between just having raw power and actually knowing how to use that power, which would make that person more powerful than one who has only raw power.

If it were that simple, perhaps Dumbledore would indeed have killed Voldemort. But it isn't. It's not like Voldemort boldly walked down the streets of Diagon Alley waiting for people to kill. He likes to operate in secret, to hide in the shadows, to make people think he could simply appear and wipe them all out at any moment. Neither is he going to go find Dumbledore himself and politely ask, "Hey, you wanna duel?" He feared Dumbledore, or at the very least, feared the possible risk of failure and defeat (perhaps even worse) at Dumbledore's hand. Arrogant though Voldemort is, he's nothing if not cautious and fearful when it comes to his own death. Further, even if Dumbledore didn't actually kill Voldemort if he picked a fight with him, who would follow Voldemort if he was thoroughly defeated by someone like Dumbledore? Only a few Death Eaters followed him out of true loyalty (Bellatrix Lestrange, for example), while the rest were either Imperiused, threatened with death to them or their family, or assumed they were joining the winning side.

Again, as for Dumbledore "eliminating" Voldemort before he killed the Potters, Dumbledore didn't exactly know where Voldemort was at any given time because again, Voldemort doesn't just walk out in the open, skipping around killing ever person he sees and risking his own attack/capture/death, and it's not like Dumbledore had a little tracking device to put on a Death Eater to find out Voldy's secret location. And as intelligent as Dumbledore is, he is not all-knowing.

Plus, by the time he heard the prophecy from Sybill Trelawney and then Snape told him that Voldemort knew the part of the prophecy that he'd overheard, Dumbledore realized that it wasn't he who was supposed to take Voldemort down. It would be whoever Voldemort chose to "mark as his equal," which turned out to be Harry Potter.

Quote please?

I don't believe the plan was to kill all Muggles. At the very least, it wasn't Dumbledore's intention. His and Grindelwald's plan was to lead the wizarding world out of hiding a rule over the Muggles. To be sure, they might have had to kill some Muggles in the process to obtain that, but they did not intend to kill every single Muggle living on the Earth.

I don't believe the prophecy made Voldemort try to kill Harry or Lily or James. It was his own choice, through and through. If he had left it alone, Snape would not have begged him to spare Lily, Voldemort would not have ended up killing her anyway, he would not have lost his body, Harry would not have become a horcrux, and Voldemort, eventually, might possibly have gained complete control of the wizarding world and later the Muggle world. But because he chose to believe the prophecy was true and because he felt threatened and paranoid about someone (other than Dumbledore) being able to defeat him, he went after the Potters.

And we all know the rest of the story.

Dumbledore did not kill himself. He put on the horcrux ring, yes. He was foolish for doing so, yes. But it specifically did not kill him. Snape managed to prevent that, but Dumbledore asked him to kill him when the time was right. And indeed, at the end of HBP, it was Snape, not the horcrux, that killed Dumbledore.

Generalizations are rarely ever correct. There are plenty of books/movies/shows/etc. where the bad guy(s) win. I'd link you to some examples right now, but some of the language on the site they're on is, I don't think, appropriate according to SS rules. If you would like to see it though, you could send me a message through msn messenger and I'd be happy to give it to you that way.

Technically, it does have a purpose, as these threads are here for discussion, and what better way to do so than with fellow SSers who have differing views? And for what it's worth, I quite enjoyed reading through yours and Sordane's discussion.

So then, by that definition, for this poll/thread we're discussing each wizard's physical or magical power? I just want some clarification to make it easier to figure out exactly what we're all trying to say here because there are many different areas in which a person can be the most powerful - magical, physical, mental, emotional, to name a few.

Absolutely agree. However, when a discussion has basically ran its course in terms of a pair of individuals who cannot see eye to eye you essentially come to a standstill. Sordane believes that power rests in talent alone regardless if one can harness it without losing control, etc. I believe that emotion plays a intergral part in how one becomes powerful but it would seem that neither of us will budge on our views so it does become pointless to that degree. But, i like and agree with a lot of your other points in your last post as i share those same views. Perhaps you may add more to the discussion to where myself and Sordane cannot.

If you look through all of the posts on this thread, most of them are relating to magical power. That is what the majority of people are thinking of. Now I understand that Dumbledore may have been smarter, although he did have more than twice as long to learn, and he was more in control. However, even with this he still couldn't beat Voldemort off at the ministry even with the elder wand. Plus the prophecy says that Harry is the only one that can defeat him, not Dumbledore. By Harry, of course meaning that Voldemort himself is really the only one that can kill Voldemort.

Harry 1st then Dumbledore. I think Harry because, of what he's gone through and all of that, other than making him a better person it would have made him a stronger wizard. Voldemort made lots of mistakes and underesimated and that's what let him down along with being evil. But then again, wthout evil, is their really good? Well, that's my view.

Nat x

What I have been trying to say through all these past entries, is that Voldemort had more potential in magic than any wizard in the series. Rowling, however, made love the strongest magic in the series and made it so that Voldemort had none of it. If Tom Riddle had been the good guy and played the "Dumbledore" role in the series, while Dumbledore played the bad guy with no ability to love, it wouldn't of even been close in comparison. As with the real way, where it was a stalemate, even when Albus had the elder wand. I understand what you guys are saying with the emotions playing into it, and when it comes to emotions Voldemort would be last (which is not his fault). However, in terms of raw potential, the one who possessed the most was hands down Lord Voldemort.

Dumbledore, because his power is much more expansive than Voldemort's.

You keep bringing up raw power/potential, and yes Voldemort has a lot of it. But what else? There is love, which Voldemort doesn't have. Then there is the saying "Knowledge is power". Dumbledore knows more about Voldemort than Voldemort knows about him.
Influence is also power. Dumbledore is able to influence people in positive ways, which are more powerful, and more effective in general, than negative ways. He doesn't rely on dominating and instilling fear in others.
And of course, he's no slouch in magical skill. Remember the examiner in OotP who said that Dumbledore did things with a wand she'd never seen before -- and he did that when he was still a student.

Speaking of magical skill, I disagree with this point. The duel could've gone longer; the reason it didn't was because Voldemort changed tactics and tried to possess Harry.

1. Who was the only wizard Voldemort is afraid of? Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. He was no doubt one of the most powerful wizards of all time. Snape admitted it, he was the only one Voldemort was afraid of.
2. Voldemort. He's most likely the only wizard ever walked on earth who successfully created 7 horcruxes. He's, after all, the most dangerous dark wizard of all time. He's a genius too. Need I say the most skilled Legilemens ever?
3. Severus Snape. Possibly the most accomplished Occlumens ever lived? He had a very brilliant mind. In terms of magical abilities, he's most likely the closest to Voldemort. Only that he didn't practice extremely dark magic. Despite for his pracitce of the Dark Arts, he loved.

As for Harry, I think he's nothing in terms of skills & intelligence compare to the 3 above. Only that he was destinied to kill Voldemort. If he was not "The Chosen One", he would've never be able to defeat someone as powerful as Voldemort. I think what Harry had was luck all the time. Since he was "The Chosen One", he was given every manners of protections. I think it was luck too that he actually met Malfoy & defeated him to gain the Elder Wand's allegiance. If he hadn't defeated Malfoy, the Elder Wand, in Voldemort's possession, might've killed Harry.

Do I really have to keep repeating myself? I am only talking about potential. Not about love. If you want to define power by who can love the most then go right ahead. The truth is Voldemort, given the time Dumbledore had and the elder wand, he would have truly been unstoppable. If Dumbledore was so much more powerful why didn't he defeat him at the ministry. At that point Voldemort was no where near his full potential and Dumbledore was very close to his (including the elder wand) and Dumbledore still couldn't finish him. And of course Dumbledore knows more, he had more than twice the time Voldemort had to learn magic. Also, when Riddle was in school they said the same things about him, and that was after Dumbledore...

Well, Harry is the only one up there still alive, so I picked 'other' Hermione.

You gotta say that, in terms of magical ability, Voldemort was the most powerful. Only one close to him was Dumbledore, but he had the elder wand which is the only reason he could compete at Voldemort's level.

I think Harry because he has defeated voldemort twice, and he could probably defeat dumbledore of he was an enemy.

In the chapter "The Only One He Ever Feared," even Voldemort comments about how Dumbledore is holding back and not aiming to kill. Dumbledore responds that there are worse things than death. It's obvious that Dumbledore wasn't throwing everything he had at Voldemort, and it seemed he was casually defending himself until the ministry came and saw Voldemort was really back. I believe he knew that killing Tom there would just delay the final war even more, since his horcruxes weren't destroyed (even if he had no proof yet, he had a hunch that horcruxes are what kept Tom alive). And he was saved by the statue and Fawkes not by luck, but by magic Dumbledore invoked. It was Voldemort who fled the fight after almost being crushed by the water, and decided to possess Harry instead of dueling. Also, Harry described Dumbledore as giving off a feeling of electricity in the room whenever Dumbledore got serious.

TheExodus brought up a good point by referencing the examiner who said Dumbledore did things with his wand that they never saw before, when he was 15 or 16 years old and WITHOUT the Elder Wand. That sounds like raw power to me. The entirety of the seven books show us that Dumbledore was an extremely talented, intelligent, and powerful wizard who commanded the respect and even fear of others. I don't know why you are discounting knowledge as not being pure power; Dumbledore always seemed to know what was happening and how things would play out. That ability gives any person extreme power. Also, we never got to see many examples of Dumbledore as a young man, but we do know that he defeated Grindewald in a duel while Grindewald was the master of the Elder Wand! That's pretty powerful, eh?


I understand you have a right to an opinion, but so does everyone else, and you're kind of being argumentative for the sake of arguing. When it comes down to it, I'll say that you might believe Voldemort is the most powerful (and you have your reasons), but I'll say that J.K. Rowling sees Dumbledore as being the most powerful. For starters, Dumbledore's soul didn't end up doomed for eternity. But most importantly, Rowling wrote after Dumbledore died that he was, "the greatest wizard Harry had ever, or would ever, meet."

Summarizing based on your definition of power:

Great or marked ability to do or act: Dumbledore orchestrated the whole war against Voldemort, and his plan worked out; Dumbledore won.

Strength, might, force: Dumbledore made Tom flee during the Ministry battle, even though he was holding back. He did things with a wand that no one else had ever seen. He won awards for exceptional spellcasting. He defeated Grindewald, the owner of the Elder Wand and the most powerful dark wizard ever until Voldemort. He gave off an electricity from his power that others could feel, including Snape who was very afraid of him on the hillside when he found out Lily was to be killed.

^ You have to understand though that Dumbledore had the elder wand and that Voldemort wasn't even close to his full potential during that fight...

^^I will agree with you on that. Dumbledore was way more powerful then Voldemort was. Dumbledore did have an excellent mind and yes he had the elder wand, which would dominate anyone.

But also, I believe that Harry would be the over all most powerful wizard. Harry had courage and love way more than anyone could ever come close to having. He was able to have everyone believe in him and 'follow' him (not like Voldemore where he got people to do that because of the fear they had towards him, not to mention he threatened them as well) but with Harry he had pure love and confidence. I mean he was able to have someone create the D.A and still have the D.A go on in memory of him after he left school to find and destroy the horcruxes.
Harry was a fearless wizard too, which made him even more powerful. He never stoped and thought 'oh this is too dangerous I can't do it. OR what's in it for me', which I feel made him extremely powerful.

^ Yeah why don't you give Voldemort the elder wand and an extra 80 years to learn magic, while giving Dumble a regular wand and 80 less years of magic and then we will see how that battle goes.....

Power isn't based on what-ifs. Teddy Roosevelt's slogan based on an African proverb was, "Walk (edit: or I think it's actually "speak") softly and carry a big stick." I think that's kind of fitting for Dumbledore - a man who used intelligence and reason most often, but also backed it up by tremendous power and, literally, a big stick! You could say the peasants with pitchforks would be more powerful than an invading army who has guns if only they had guns too, but unfortunately the people with the guns currently have the most power and will win. As it stands in the books, Dumbledore has age, wisdom, and the allegiance of the elder wand from defeating Grindewald, and what-ifs won't change that fact.

Definetly Voldemort, if it was dumbledore then he would have destroyed Voldemort easily and he wouldn't of been a problem.

Obviously Dumbledore... and that's just from referring to the scene in the cave...

How was the cave impressive? Voldemort did such a bad job protecting that horcrux, that some average ex-death eater was able to get to it.

I definitely know it's Albus Dumbledore!

I'd say Harry because dumbledore didn't conquer voldemort did he? But harry did twice. Once by accident when he was one, then one purpose when he was eighteen. Dumbledore didn't conquer him once, so therefore Harry is. IMO anyway.

Voldemort hands down.