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Old 07-11-2005, 09:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Who trusts Severus Snape?

Who trusts Severus Snape?
By She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho!
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Dumbledore trusts for Snape is one of the things we have made the most speculations. I have another question for you, however; why would Voldemort so easily trust him?

Why, Snape -seemly- deserted the Dead Eaters. In the reviving ceremony, Voldemort talks of the people who aren’t there that night; "six missing Death Eaters… three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever... he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant -"(GF33, p565). Of course, not counting those imprisoned, the last was Crouch Jr while the other two were Snape and Karkaroff (“Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight? We both felt the Mark burn.”- Snape, GF36, p616). But who's who?

We pretty much know Snape was NOT in the reviving ceremony alright. So let's move from there.



Surely by the description 'cowardly' we think of Karkaroff immediately, hence labeling Snape as the one to be killed. But isn't it curious? OotP and Snape is still working as a spy, still seems to be in touch with the Death Eaters (he tells Sirius L.Malfoy recognized him as a dog OP24) and pretty much alive! *massive gasp* How and why? Did Voldyshorts change his mind on the killing part maybe? Has he forgiven him? Or should we believe Snape is the coward one and only got a fair session of Crucio to make up for his offence? And Dumbledore just allowed it?
"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ...""I am," said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. (GF 36, p619)

I find it funny that Snape, from the point of view that he was forgiven, could get away with it and gained the trust just as immediately. Dumbledore defended him publicly during Karkaroff's trial in the 1980s by revealing that Snape had been a spy. Just think, again into this inner circle this easily! Now, I want to point out that in the many visions Harry saw, not once, he saw Snape facing Voldemort as one would expect when receiving his 'punishing'(a way or another he was getting punished, no doubt). Could Voldemort back out from his previous threat? I myself am a bit skeptic.

My best guess is that Severus Snape never again had direct contact with Voldemort.

To put it clearer: Severus would not need to speak to Voldemort, if he had an indirect source to get the information. Yes, an informant of an informant. And the secondary informant, I must say, can only be Lucius Malfoy.



Now, it’s not uncommon in fanfiction to suppose Snape and Lucius are some kind of best friends since school, hence Snape treating Draco better than any other students (uncle Sev anyone?) I would dare say that guess might not be completely incorrect, as we spot Snape’s reaction to when Harry accused Lucius Malfoy of being a Death Eater:
“I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy –”Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape’s eyes flew back to Fudge. (GF36, p613)


Sirius had said "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters" (GF25, p460-461). This gang might have included Lucius. (Lucius would be a seventh year when Snape was at his first, though.)

Lucius has spoken well of Snape many times. Umbridge said of him when Snape was unhelpful with Veritaserum, “I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you!" (OP 32). Draco also has a good opinion of him: "Sir, why don't you apply for the headmaster's job? … I expect you'd have Father's vote, sir, if you wanted to apply for the job. I'll tell father you're the best teacher here, sir…” (CS15)



Plus, you will find all type of information Snape is getting seemed to be related to Malfoy:
"Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days?" I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?""Speaking of dogs," said Snape softly, "did you know that Lucius Malfoy recognized you last time you risked a little jaunt outside? Clever idea, Black, getting yourself seen on a safe station platform... gave you a cast-iron excuse not to leave your hidey-hole in future, didn't it?" (OP 24)


Actually, from the moment Sirius’ words labels Snape as Lucius Malfoy’s lapdog, it appear quite certain to me it’s probably Lucius Snape is spying upon and not Voldemort directly. The leak in information is, once more, the Malfoys(*see following).

The question is, how much does Lucius Malfoy knows? He sure seems to trust Snape despite his desertion. With no doubts or hesitation in his mind? Putting aside Severus Snape’s intentions, what is Lucius Malfoy thinking opening his doors to Snape?

One guess is that Lucius doesn’t know about Snape’s desertion and that he is the one to be killed or punished, in Voldemort’s words. Other is that he dumbly thinks Snape has been forgiven by the Dark Lord. I, however, would give Lucius and Lord Voldemort both more credit. I do believe Lucius knows Snape is a traitor (maybe not a spy, though).

If Lucius knows about his betrayal, then why is he helping him? Now, I’m not about to say Lucius is really this good guy in disguise. It’s pretty obvious he holds no restrictions against cold-blooded murdering a boy the same age his son’s. And obviously despises muggles and half-bloods, not needing the Dark Lord for an excuse to have fun with them (GF10). But this and Draco’s behavior might make us have doubts about the authenticity of their loyalty to Voldemort.



Put it this way. Draco had already hinted to Harry he had spotted Sirius (“I’ll be dogging your footsteps” –OP10, p194) even before Harry heard it from Snape, from Lucius Malfoy. It was Draco the one letting them know Hermione should run away from the DE at the world cup because they were after muggles and ‘mudbloods’ (GF9, p110), instead of joining his father or sending Hermione into a trap.
'Maybe,' said Malfoy in an undertone, so that only Harry could hear him, 'the stupid great oaf's got himself badly injured.''Maybe you will if you don't shut up,' said Harry out of the side of his mouth.
'Maybe he's been messing with stuff that's too big for him, if you get my drift.' (OP13, p259-260)

Again, not about to say those two are good guys but rather to bring up that the Malfoys might have hidden intentions behind their actions. Either too stupid, too tongue-slippery with their teases and don’t know when to shut up, or the hidden intention scenario.

Plus there is the fact that Lucius Malfoy was never condemned in his prosecution. Why? Apart from his well-stationed position in the Ministry, what ingenious excuse did he make up to avoid Azkaban? “…he'd never meant any of it" (CS3, p27) it was. Hardly enough. I would presume that’s not even half his excuse, and his excuse might be related to this unfelt royalty towards the Dark Lord.

So up to now, this is what we have. No real answers but various speculations. I would dare say, no, Voldemort does not trust Snape. Even as much as he can relay on his Legillimence skills, Voldemort has more sense than relying on his power alone. Only that is not enough to forgive Snape and we know Voldemort to be more revengeful than that. Dumbledore trusts Snape, so he must at least trust that the information he gets from Lucius Malfoy as well. All that’s left to know is what the reasons behind Snape and Lucius both are, or if Snape is tricking Lucius in a way we hardly suspect. But I would bet my pre-ordered copy of the HBP Snape and Lucius have a bond.
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Last edited by She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho!; 07-11-2005 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 07-11-2005, 10:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Author’s Notes:

The argument this essay is responding to is that of the common belief that Voldemort was persuaded to give Snape a hearing and Snape's skills as an Occlumens would have protected him from exposure via Voldemort's use of Legilimency.

This essay also supposes Voldemort had addressed all the Death Eaters at the graveyard, plus those who weren’t there with no good reason. (We believe Mulciber, Jugson and Travers were part of those ten DE who broke out from Azkaban with the three Lestranges, Rookwood and Dolohov. Two of the 10 are still unnamed.)

There’s also the possibility that this was only Voldemort’s inner circle, those who had been called at the reviving ceremony. But Snape had his mark calling him, no doubt about that.

If we start off from the fact Voldemort did not name them all, and that Snape had been in fact part of the group in the reviving ceremony, we wonder why he didn’t attempt helping Harry and why Voldemort didn’t question Snape about Dumbledore defending him on trial then as he questioned the other Death Eaters.

Considering the time-lines, Snape was with Dumbledore and McGonagall not much after Harry was back, and he witness how Karkaroff fled after the third task, so he must have been at Hogwarts at the time. Supposing he was the last to respond to the call and the first to leave once dismissed after the reviving ceremony, we might wonder why then Dumbledore asked him: "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ..." and why Snape was looking paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. If he had already met with the Dark Lord, what could he fear?

As you can see, that last quote works both against my theory and supports it. It works along the counter-essay Snape fighting Voldemort’s Legillimency, but hints also that Snape was not there and therefore might be “[who] has left [Voldemort] forever.”

We wonder if what Snape fears is not asking for Voldemort’s forgiveness but something else.

As last point, Bagman also fled from the place after the Triwizarding Tournament, and that might make us wonder if one of the two absent Death Eeater was him (he was cleared on trial, though). Only wonder is, where does Snape fits if so? Karkaroff is of course one of the two.

With that I hope I have addressed most counter-proofs that might appear and the other side of the argument for you to draw your own conclusions. Plus, the essay intends on opening the question of the involvement of the Malfoy family, how exactly and the why of their actions. It relates to the theory of a rather strong tie between Severus Snape and the Malfoy family, whether it’s friendly-affective or formal-extortive or some other. Only time can tell.

Sources & Notes:
- CS = Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (British Edition)
- GF = Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (British Edition)
- OP = Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (US Edition)
DE stands for Death Eater.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I for 1 dont kno
Snape might be on the the dark side but i beleive
The potion dumbledore took was a potion to give him a special barrier against the death, and he knew this and planned with snape, and snape was to cast the curse. Creating an image of him being murdered. Dumbledore is smart y wud he take a strange potion.
wot u think HARRY POTTER 6 resources
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:09 PM   #4 (permalink)

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This is a pre-HBP essay of course so no evidence from HBP can be used in retaliation; Nadia wrote this before that book was released.
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Old 07-22-2005, 11:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Indeed. And I was proven wrong and right both. For one, that Snape and the Malfoys had a special link, and for the other, that Voldemort did trust Snape though he had said he would kill him. So yeah, I was wrong on that part. And, yes, this was before HBP. Though I don't quite agree with that theory. Now I have to come up with a new theory. Though... up to know I have no new theories *shrug* This book releaved more than it hide.
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Old 07-24-2005, 10:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Even the theory was partly wrong, it`s marvelous! And I like it!
^hope you`ll think up some new theories I myself going to write something, if there`s free time.
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Old 07-25-2005, 05:22 AM   #7 (permalink)
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This editorial is brilliant Nadia, one of the best i think. You have pieced so much evidence together and ocme out with such a well structed and strong conclusion and like it was said NO evidence from HBP was used which makes it even more amazing. I agree with you that Snape and the Malfoys do have a bond, and i also agree that Voldemort is not as foolish as to trust Snape

Well done Nadia, it was a great read
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyMoonyFan
This editorial is brilliant Nadia, one of the best i think. You have pieced so much evidence together and ocme out with such a well structed and strong conclusion and like it was said NO evidence from HBP was used which makes it even more amazing. I agree with you that Snape and the Malfoys do have a bond, and i also agree that Voldemort is not as foolish as to trust Snape

Well done Nadia, it was a great read

I agree with crazymoonyfan
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Ruddy good editorial. There is a question of Snape having done it under the Imperius Curse though...
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:30 PM   #10 (permalink)
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^ I disagree. When I read the book, I got a powerful feeling from the text that Snape did NOT want to do it. I don't know if it actually said that in the book, or if that's just my impression, but that's my opinion.

I do agree, though, that this was a brilliant article. Really well thought out, the evidence pieced together here is almost profectic in how close it ended up to HPB. But, I suppose, JK did give us all the clues, it just takes a sharp mind to put them together.
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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S'wat I'm Saying. Snape might've done it becoz he was under the imperius curse or because he was under the unbreakable vow - meaning he was bound to die if he didn't save Malfoy's Neck as promised to Narcissa.
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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again guyz, whoeva rote dis can u plz tell me if u made dat up or iz it a part of da book?? n yeah, i herd snape killed dumbledore in da sixth book ..!?
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You shouldn't be readin this if you haven't yet read the 6th book. This is a SPOILER. What's the use of reading the book if u know everything in the book before you read it ? And this is an essay made up from people's own words using that which has been quoted from the book.
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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o ok i didnt kno dat, well den i think ill cum bak 2 reed dis thred afta reedin da buk den eh?
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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That would be a much better thing to do !
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Yeah i agree Snape might have killed Dumbledore cuz of the unbreakable vow he made to Narcissa...otherwise we donot know what might happen in the 7th book and wht J.k wud reveal...But i seriously think that snape is not to be trusted...

Waiting for J.K to reveal the title for the 7th one...THAT MIGHT BE TOO MUCH TIME LATER.
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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After reading the Half-blood Prince, No, would not trust Snape after he pulled Death Eater stunt. Are you crazy? I would never trust Snape. Even he told me that changed his ways. He hated Harry's parents and Sirius Black. He fed Voldemort the info to chase the Potters.
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Regardless of anything, HP is still, like I've always said, All about Severus Snape.

Let me just say one thing:

He had no choice. I still trust that there is good in him. I mean, just think, if he hadn't have killed him, he woulda died. He was stuck, especially since there were other death eaters present.
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think that Snape made the vow before he knew exactly what Draco was supposed to do...and when he found out, he told Dumbledore...and Dumbledore decided that it was best for Snape to finish him, saving his own life, and Draco's as well...As much as I wanted to hate him(Snape) at first for doing it, the more I think about it, I just can't believe Dumbledore would've given up without a fight unless it was planned that way.
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Hehe wonderful essay! Uncle Sev?

As so many other things concerning Snape this gets me thinking... Very nice to hear your thoughts on this! Very good!
I very much like this hidden-Malfoy-intensions... interesting and intriguing!

Quote:
One guess is that Lucius doesn’t know about Snape’s desertion and that he is the one to be killed or punished, in Voldemort’s words.
Maybe I got this wrong but do you mean Lucius himself? Because that can't be because he was present - Harry heard Voldie talk to him...
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Old 07-30-2005, 08:12 AM   #21 (permalink)
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ok im sorry but i def. couldnt read that whole first post but i get the idea and MY opinion is that i trust snape...i think the death was planned for some reason...honestly i dont WANT to know yet..but i do trust him...dumbledore is my fav. chactor cuz he always seems to know the truth and the right thing to do...

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Old 08-04-2005, 11:30 PM   #22 (permalink)

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i think the reason snape killed was to be voldies no1 man, this way he would b a better spy
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:25 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
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After reading the Half-blood Prince, No, would not trust Snape after he pulled Death Eater stunt. Are you crazy? I would never trust Snape. Even he told me that changed his ways. He hated Harry's parents and Sirius Black. He fed Voldemort the info to chase the Potters.

Who could trust Snape after reading the sixth book? "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" That was right before he killed Dumbledore. Snape hated Dumbledore even though Dumbledore trusted him. How could you trust Snape after that?
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:11 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Oh dear I made this editorial before HBP, so when I wrote it of course it was without the information in HBP. Thanks guys for finding it interesting, and maybe the theory is not completely dead^^

Now about the trust Dumbledore had for Snape, this is a different issue I barely mentioned in this article. Actually, didn't mention it at all despite the comments I'm getting All which did indeed read though the long and scary first post, thanks and thanks for your comments^^

But since we are at it... Well, I'm giving Dumbledore more credit than that. I don't think he was fooled by Snape at all, but he knew exactly was was coming and even planned many of it. There's a piece of the puzzle of Severus Snape we don't have, and until we do, we are not allowed, as readers, to make assumptions about how guilty Snape is.

Like with everything else; if you have incomplete information we better keep quiet, and it's obvious Dumbledore had much more information than we or Harry have.

Therefore I'm tempted to think on the same lines of DarthPace, PansyParkinson, etc. Revulsion on his face? Isn't one to mean it, to kill somebody, when you have to use the spell? And about Snape feeding information to Voldemort to hunt the Potters; that had happened before he became a spy, I'm sure.

Again, it's a matter if you trust Dumbledore's judgement, whether you choose to trust Snape or not. Maybe I should write an essay about it next time^^
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Old 08-11-2005, 11:49 PM   #25 (permalink)
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i think that dumbledore did trust snape cause he would have not let him stay in hogwarts near harry potter if he didn't and also voldermort trusted snape to spy on dumbledore and hogwarts people and i think that the malfoys trusted snape also beacuse draco's mother made snape do a vow if she didn't trust him then she wouldn't have went to him only harry potter and bellatrix don't trust snape for sure
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