I've always sort of wondered if any other historian-freaks noticed how many similarities there was between the last book and World War II. Enemies killed and suddenly disappearing, but only certain people knew of certain disappearances. People were afraid to speak up, they were running away.

The one thing that called my attention the most was in DH, when the trio enters the ministry and they see "this vast sculpture of a witch and a wizard sitting on ornately carved thrones, looking down at the ministry workers [...] Harry looked more closely and realised that what he thought were decoratively carved thrones were actually mounds of carved humans: hundreds and hundreds of naked bodies, men, women and children, all with rather stupid, ugly faces, twisted and pressed together to support the weight of the handsomely robed wizards." (DH pg. 198-199)

Does that not remind you of anything at all?

There were many other little things slipped in that I kept connecting to Hitler. Did anybody else notice them? Or the message JK was trying to portray with connecting her book to such horrific events?

Actually, yes Niky! I actually have noticed the similarities between not only Deathly Hallows and WWII, but really among a lot of her books in trying to somehow incorporate history into the books. When talking of the death eaters to a friend of mine, she actually told me something of how they were similar to the Nazis. It was a point that I never really realized until she pointed out, when I was like, "hmm, she's right".

Seriously though, the relationship of Nazis to Death Eaters, and even among the naked bodies at the Ministry (which I didn't recall until you pointed it out), is kind of crazy. But I do think this was all on purpose, because we know that JKR used history to create names of people and places, so why not even give a history lesson too? Scary to think about, but it's reality.

I'd say it's a fairly obvious connection, not only to Nazism but to other ideologies of the same crazy variety as well; racial supremacy or nationalist groups for example. Or religious cults.
Although the comparisons to the Third Reich are probably the most prevalent: The inscription at the entrance to Nurmengard, Grindelwald's prison for (political?) enemies, "For the greater good", is eerily similar to the phrase "Arbeit macht frei" (something like: Work will set you free) that was put up at a number of concentration camps, including Auschwitz.
And I definitely think that this was done deliberately by JK - after all, the Harry Potter books are, to a considerable extent, trying to teach tolerance.

In before Godwin's Law.

Lol, I was JUST about to create a thread similar to this after viewing the "Is Love enough of a reason?" thread.xD Haha, thankfully I checked the other threads before.

I think one of the biggest reasons why I love Deathly Hallows the most was because of all those itty bitty references to things of the past that do indeed relate. However, to spark up a little more discussion with this totally awesome topic, I have a different question to ask.

Most of us would like to believe that we'd stand up against people who commit such horrendous acts... && I've lost track of how many times I've told people that I wish I had lived in that time and place to see what my initial reaction was because, honestly? Though I'd like to humor myself and say there's no way I'd ever be okay with such a thing, would I really do everything in my power to "stop it"? The truth is, I don't know if I really would. There's so many factors involved.xD

Sooo, let's say: You were someone like Draco, a pure blood [A blonde-haired, blue-eyed German adolescent]. Surrounded and brought up by Death Eaters [Nazi-like Hitler loyals], do you honestly think you'd go against it even if it meant your death? Perhaps like Sirius? If so, would you go the extra mile and work from the inside for whatever your reason like Snape? [Schindler, anyone? If you people haven't seen the Schindler's List, you must!] Or would you hide out and not have to deal with committing something you knew to be wrong like Slughorn [The ex amount of Germans who fled to Europe and later, America in fear]? Or better yet, would we be like Fudge, choosing to ignore all of the blatant proof until after so much blood was shed? [Though the Allies came to the rescue eventually, they could've saved far more lives if they hadn't chosen to ignore/doubt all of the "rumours".

Most importantly, WHY? I mean, I've always been told I have a sassy personality and that I need to learn to "cool it" and not to act impulsively, but if I were to really sit down and go over all the areas that need to be considered, I'd have to say I'd do something stupid and get myself killed instead of actually "making a difference".

So, where do you think you play into this whole concept?

You say WWII and you mean Nazism (or Fascism). References are many, and they're quite obvious.

The resistance. Or better: the nonexistent resistance.

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So, where do you think you play into this whole concept?

No, I do not wish I had lived in that time. I think, that wish is, please excuse me, a bit disgusting. You do not need to travel in time to prove yourself a good person. You can do it here and now. (--> Study. Of course, everyone of us is dead sure they belong to the 30%.)

It's a bit annoying that JKR doesn't show more ways of resistance. I mean, she's a writer, but where are the writers, the artists in the HP universe? There's an exclusive club, the printing press of a loony and a radio. Great.

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Most importantly, WHY?

Like Dumbledore said: Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy.
Most people choose the easy way. Again, I don't think you need a life and death situation, every day we have to make decisions, and it's often a question of right and easy. In my opinion, people who usually prefer the easy way will most likely not start wandering on the rocky, right way, if it comes down to it.

[Tina, we argued about that before, again, I appreciate your interest, even if we often disagree. Worst thing is ignorance.]

xD I've heard that one before. And yes, in ways, it is disgusting...but my reasoning may not be as clear-cut as you assumed. To read books upon books of such "studies" and to be fully engrossed in them in that way...It's kind of hard not to want to fully experience it. Be it bad or good.xD At least, in this state of mind.

And, believe it or not, I've heard that bit as well. *shudders at the article* And, you're right. We are living in a time where such a thing is blatantly obvious...but....well, I don't know what..xD Oh, and I know I'll get attacked for this but...how much of that can be truly directed toward someone of the "minority" should be considered.xD But, yes. You're right, Taxus. Hypocrisy isn't fun.

The last battle wasn't resistance enough? xD And layy off Fred and George, mister.

Yes, we have. xD Although, I still consider it as a "Tina listening and blabbing nonsense before finally getting the bigger picture" kinda thing. And, it wasn't ignorance, per say. Perhaps a tint of hypocrisy and a bit of wishful thinking. Okayyy, maybe so. It's still an interesting concept. *shrugs*

Yes, the connections are pretty obvious. Especially the "for the Greater Good" carved over the entrance of a prison part.

But resistance is about the only thing DH is about! All the "good" characters are part of the resistance. I would have liked to see more of the kind of people that are mentioned by Mr Weasley, who are not really in league with Voldemort, but are to scared to say so once he has become powerful. While that is not the way people should react in such a situation it is a realistic and understandable reaction. That's why I like ambivalent characters like Slughorn and Xeno Lovegood. Not everybody is brave.

I am not brave. And while I am absolutely sure that I would never believe in an ideology like the Nazi's, I also can't see myself risking my life fighting such a regime.

Maybe one of the lessons Jo is trying to teach is that we should never let things get that far in the first place. Had the wizards listened to Harry and Dumbledore and prevented the Death Eaters from gaining power no war would have been neccessary.

If you are refering to the pureblood characters who were allowed to go back to go back to Hogwarts under Voldemorts regime, kina of like Hitler sparing the people e felt were good and pure. Taxus, are you asking why Harry's freinds at Hogwarts Nevile, and Ginny did not try to resist Voldemort right then and there? I believe it is because they knew taking that approach would end in disaster. It was better they stay out of the radar and try to keep their fellow classmates out of harms way, plus without Harry there trying to fight Voldemort would have been futile and end in disaster. And to top it all off they were just three students. Why did they not try to rally the school? It would have ended in more casualties then necesary. What about those outside of Hogwarts? They were runaways, they did what they could with their radio show undercover, if they tried to fight they would ave been the first killed especially having no source of backup. Thus I say the resistance efforts in Deathly Hallows was all they could be.
Why did the Ministry choose to be blind to Voldemorts distruction was they did not want to scare the people anymore then they already have been. However when the government chooses to ignore reality it comes back to bite them in the but later with more lives lost then had to be if the government would have chosen to see the truth and quit telling lies so something can be done to help the problem and not just pretend it does not exist. It would have made things atleast a little easier for Harry.

Yeah, there are really many similarities, and I think it really helps understanding what it was like living back then with Hitler and the Nazis and having to suffer under them.

I suppose we have not read the same books.

Kind of brave, that statement. (thinks honesty is finally better than bravery)

I agree completely with the points that were raised in this thread. After re-reading this book many times, I likened Voldemort to a type of Hitler-the whole purebood(or 'white power' racist gangs) notion is a dead giveaway. Unintentional or not, it gives JKR's novels more depth & meaning. Even house elves that are used as slaves- i.e. slavery in various countries such as the Deep South way back then. Especially the words inscribed over the wizard prison- reminds me of the Jewish concentration camps.
When you reflect upon it, there are a lot of heavy themes tackled in the books, racism, death, grief, depression (the Dementors), even Harry's depression and grief after the death of Sirius & other characters & his desire to see his parents again if not in spirit.

I also noticed the similarities between the Deathly Hallows and WWII. Like someone said before the people were scared to say their own opinion, just in case someone would hunt and kill themselves and their whole family. People were running away. People were killed because of their opinions. Lord Voldemort and "his" people are all cruel and have no intention to respect any other opinion about anything. So, yeah, there are definitely similarities between them.

I think that is one of the things I admire most about JKR. While I have many escapism novels and tons of favorites, like say the Bridgertons, JKR manages to put a whole new spin on the depth of a novel. You guys are right, it's not just about WWII, the entire series is about good versus evil, just different examples over and over. I think she tries to put some faith in humanity, that people recognizing the wrongdoing can stop the suffering. And there's people like that all around the world, and throughout history.

JKR not only writes in a way that captures audiences far and wide, but teaches in a way we don't realize. To some people, it's a battle of right and wrong, but to others it can cut a little deeper. You guys talk of traveling back to those times and wondering what one would've done, well perhaps that's only half way there. Maybe she meant to ask what are you doing now, people are still dying are they not?

Or maybe it's my far stretched cry I just don't believe that JKR's slips into history are accidental, or that they're not meant to teach a lesson. Just, what lesson, specifically? And what will we do with it?



(I apologize, I've been working all day and its 10:30 at night lol xD)

Yes, actually.
The part including the "Bodies Throne" sounds very familiar to auschwitz Nazi Camp.
And "the greater good", is what Hitler was trying to achieve, by murdering people that were too different to "ordinary people"...

In the aftermath of WWII, Communism rose to a fearful level of comfort. America saw the Soviet Union as a "threat to democracy..." and many countries, like France, Britain, and Germany, were in shambles. Joseph Stalin entered WWII on the ideal of destroying fascism, but in the end, he ended up leading the Soviet Union into the same power-hungry corruption that Hitler himself, posed. Soon, the US and the Soviet Union were in a "silent" war. The two superpowers, who everyone and their aunt, thought would live in peace, fell into war.

In fear of Communism, Sen. Joseph McCarthy led a fierce campaign to end Communism in the States. A Blacklist was created, demeaning certain Americans, Communists. People were afraid to speak out against government bodies, in fear of being labeled Communistic or Un-American. Trials were held convicting these individuals of Communism. Once Sen. McCarthy began to accuse Army officials of being Communists, his reign ended. The Comi-Hunt ended, and peace was reestablished.

Now, in relation to Deathly Hallows, Voldemort is the Joseph McCarthy in this story. He led a bloody campaign to end Muggle reign so that Witches and Wizards could rule the world and come out of hiding. He took out the Minister of Magic and denounced himself the new Minister. Under him and his Death Eater comrades, he reinvented the court systems so that new laws could be passed favouring magical people over muggle-borns. He instructed Dolores Umbridge to pass around a "secret" list of "Undesirables" and "Desirables." To me this sounds like Blacklisting. Desirables were Pure-Blood - Half - Blood Traitor. Undesirables were Muggle-borns - Muggles and Harry Potter.

In Deathly Hallows, The Statue represents this crude thinking. Humans, or Muggles in JK Rowling's Universe, are at the bottom of the Statue. They make up this imperial throne of which two wizards sit upon.

Crush the Communists, uplift the Democrats. Crush the Muggles, uplift the Magical. Even the clause on the Statue restates my opinion:

"Magic is Might."

Simple, yes, but extremely effective in the context of which I have previously stated.

Yeah, i was wondering if anyone else found that Magic is Might statue as striking as I did. When I read it there was a horrible recollection of all those Nazi designed monuments and buildings. And slogans like 'undesirables' and Pamphlets on how a pureblood is a happy rose with muggleborns as a vicious thorn. The propaganda was prevailent throughout. Also in line with what happened in WWII, Hogwarts changed its subjects in order to twist the minds of students. How muggleborns stole their powers, how to perform dark magic. The Nazi party had book burnings, upheaval in the schools where lessons were concerned with Jews, Aryan race and of course Mr Hitler himself.
Hagrid held a party to support Harry and it was one of the worst things he could have done given the situation, I mean I know its inspiring but just not practical. I agree with LunaticLady in that I would find the situation awful but I'm not brave. I might have taken a similar course of action that Draco did. Not something to be proud about but realistically, honestly thats more than likely what I would have done.

I very much conncted Voldermort to Hitler just because of the brutel way he killed people that didn't agree with him. I never thought of the statue in the Ministry, but now that you mention it, yeah it does. I'm glad that I'm not the only person that reconized that!

I noticed the similarities... the Dark Mark and the swastika, Hitler and Voldemort, the Death Eaters and the Nazis. But when I was reading something not too long ago, I noticed that in WW2 Nazis came to german schools to teach children racism, to tell them about how the Aryan race is superior. Does this seem similar to DH, when the Carrows come to teach at Hogwarts, specifically when Alecto Carrow teaches Muggle studies?

I think one of the most important themes of the books is racism, which was a major component of Hitler's Germany. In the books, it was all about pure-bloods (aryans) and how they were so much superior. Of course, they were defeated, just like Hitler, because it's our diversity that makes us stronger.

Actually, I began to notice this in books earlier than DH. Such as the way Voldemort sort of slid his way back into power after his years abroad, much like Hitler did when he was released from prison.

It's also quite an interesting view on what would happen if a totalitarian dictator did assume complete control of the world because, thankfully, Hitler was stopped before that could happen.

-VVV

Voldemort only took over "Magical" England, not the world.

Quite true!It does seem somewhat alike, Also, Jews and Hitler. He tortured them, and the concentration camps.Ok now think back to DH what do the carrows do to punish people...They torture them. If I remember correctly they use cruciatus on people as punishment.We all know what Hitler did to the Jews, so I feel no need to elaborate.It actually makes me feel sick, that DH is quite similar to WWII at least in character behavior and actions lol

Yes that does remind me of somthing, the concentration camps, having loads of Jews in camps when it's only there riligion. And same with muggle born's some people hate them as some hated the Jews!

Exactly! So many of my realitives were killed in these camps!!! Even Voldemort was better than Hitler. At least Voldemort didn't build huge concentration camps where he killed millions of muggle borns! :O

But he might have done something like that, if he hadn't been defeated.

Yes, Voldemort and the Death Eaters were very similar to Hitler and the Nazis. Both groups believed in the pure blood, that some people were better than others because of their ancestry. I think I've even heard, that Hitler might have had some Jewish ancestry, just like Voldemort had muggle ancestry, so they both must have hated parts of themselves.

Another similarity is how both groups admired strength and power. But not the strenght and power of love and friendship, or the strength and power of doing what's right, but the strenght and power of defeating and conquering people by force. If you had strength and power, they saw it as weak and foolish to not use this to get more strength and power. Even Snape, who wasn't supposed to be a Death Eater anymore, taunted Sirius and Harry for being "cowards" and "weak" in OOTP, probably because he, as a former DE, could find no better insults than that to throw at them.

And let's not forget Dolores Umbridge. She might not have been a Death Eater, but she could just as well have been one, not just because of how evil she was, but because she was a convinced believer in the supremacy of the pure blood. The way she prosecuted Muggle-borns in DH was just what a Nazi official would have done against Jews during WWII.