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BrightestWitch · 08-03-2007, 01:37 PM

So from reading DH we see how Kreacher's behavior changes towards Harry when he shows him a bit of respect and compassion. If Sirius would have shown Kreacher respect and kindness do you guys think Sirius' life would have been different?

Would Kreacher still have betrayed Sirius and the Order? And would he have lied to Harry about Sirius not being at Grimmauld Place (OotP)? And most importantly would Sirius still be alive? I know that may be a little far fetched but even minor details can have a big impact on what happens in life.

*Wasn't sure what Topic number we were on but I assumed it was 15...if that is incorrect please inform me and I will change the number. ^.^

griffin_girl · 08-03-2007, 02:36 PM

I think it was wrong of Siry to take his grudge towards his parents and pour it all out on Kreacher...[I'm sorry Siry, but that was wrong!]

I defo think that if he was kinder towards Kreacher, the house-elf would have loved to do stuff for him...just like when Harry became kind to Kreacher and the house-elf was happy to oblige whenever he could...

BrightestWitch · 08-03-2007, 05:09 PM

I totally agree Zyra. If Sirius would have treated him with more respect Kreacher would have remained loyal to the Black family and maybe he wouldn't have been all buddy buddy with Sirius (because Sirius' beliefs weren't exactly in line with those of his family - the whole Pure blood mentality and all...) but he definitely would have thought twice before betraying his master. -pets Kreacher and sends him to a day spa- Lol!

griffin_girl · 08-03-2007, 05:11 PM

LoL...Kreacher would love the day spa....

Anyway...If Sirius was nice to Kreacher, I think Kreacher would have mentioned the locket or something...offer some sort of help to Sirius...

BrightestWitch · 08-03-2007, 05:13 PM

Yes...that too. He probably would have been more helpful. But who knows...Kreacher is very complex in my opinion. Kind of like Snape. Lol! Snape and Kreacher are kind of alike...-has no idea what she is saying due to lack of food- Lmao!

griffin_girl · 08-03-2007, 05:23 PM

I actually agree with you...Kreacher is complex...I mean, somewhere in the book, I think it mentions Kreacher was nice to Bella because she was nice to him...yet when Harry became nice to Kreacher, he became niec to Harry too...I think Kreacher is pretty smart and would have realized he was betraying Bella when offering Harry help...so...yeah...

*gives Jor a Donut*

BrightestWitch · 08-03-2007, 05:43 PM

-eats the doughnut and totally agrees with you-

Poor Kreacher, I think he just would have liked to be treated as an equel. He doesn't seem dumb like Winky. I mean you could treat Winky like crap and she would still stand up for you and defend you, but not Kreacher...he was smart and treated people the way they treated him.

As much as I love Sirius he didn't have to be such a jerk. Kreacher would have eventually warmed up to him a little if he would have just treated him differently. -shrugs-

griffin_girl · 08-03-2007, 06:00 PM

Exactly! Kreacher and Dobby had a mind of their own and knew what was right from wrong...Kreacher wasn't really bad...he just seemed bad because he was nice to the bad people who were nice to him [say what?!]

I actually loved it when the elf was nice to Harry and calling him 'Master Harry' and kindly asking him to take his shoes off. Oh, and when Kreacher was actually wearing clean pillowcases [i think...LoL] that was nice too...shows you he's in a'happy mood'.

If Siry had been nice to Kreacher, I think Kreacher would have helped prevent him from dying, because it was the elf who told Harry that Siry was caprtured by Voldie, when really, Siry was upstairs healing Buckbeak or something...

DeathEaterJ · 08-03-2007, 09:52 PM

I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but let me have at it. I don't think Sirius being nice or not would have made a bit of difference in his fate.

1. Kreacher only tricked Harry into going to the ministry. Sirius went on his own accord.

2. Harry gave Kreacher the fake locket (having belonged to Regulus) and it was only after that that Kreacher finally developed a 'relationship' (for lack of a better term) with Harry.

I think Kreacher's deep connection with Regulus, and Harry's giving him the locket is what truly brought Kreacher around and on Harry's side. Sirius never liked his family (including Regulus) and I think that even if he were nice to Kreacher, that the house-elf would have held a grudge against him. Kreacher was very close/fond of Regulus and both of their (Sirius and Regulus) parents.

But that is just my theory.

Now if Sirius had never yelled,"GET OUT!" who know what would have happened.

griffin_girl · 08-03-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathEaterJ

I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but let me have at it. I don't think Sirius being nice or not would have made a bit of difference in his fate.

1. Kreacher only tricked Harry into going to the ministry. Sirius went on his own accord.

2. Harry gave Kreacher the fake locket (having belonged to Regulus) and it was only after that that Kreacher finally developed a 'relationship' (for lack of a better term) with Harry.

I think Kreacher's deep connection with Regulus, and Harry's giving him the locket is what truly brought Kreacher around and on Harry's side. Sirius never liked his family (including Regulus) and I think that even if he were nice to Kreacher, that the house-elf would have held a grudge against him. Kreacher was very close/fond of Regulus and both of their (Sirius and Regulus) parents.

But that is just my theory.

Now if Sirius had never yelled,"GET OUT!" who know what would have happened.

I disagree....

1. He tricked Harry because neither Sirius nor Harry were nice to him so why should he care?

2.Exactly! Harry was nice to Kreacher, so Kreacher became nice to him...so if Sirius was nice to Kreacher, Kreacher would've been nice to Sirius.

Kreacher is the sort of character that has the attitude like 'if you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you...if you're not, why should I care what you do?'

and I think I can find a quote that Hermione said...here!

page 198, HP and the DH, US edition:

"Harry, Kreacher doesn't think like that," said Hermione, wiping her eyes on the back of her hand. "He's a slave; house-elves are used to bad, even brutal treatment; what Voldemort did to Kreacher wasn't that far out of the common way. What do wizard wars mean to an elf like Kreacher? He's loyal to people who are kind to him, and Mrs. Black must have been and Regulus certainly was, so he served them willingly and parroted their beliefs. I know what you're going to say," she went on as Harry began to protest, "that Regulus changed his mind...but he doesn't seem to have explained that to Kreacher, does he? And I think I know why. Kreacher and Regulus's family were all safer if they kept to the ol pure-blood line. Regulus was trying to protect them all.

So, like that quote up there states, Kreacher is kind to those who treat him well...and her parrots the believes of these people, meaning: If a person who was nice to Krecher thinks halfbloods and mudbloods are scum, so would Kreacher...and Kreacher went on thinking that even if Regulus changed his view of half/mudbloods, but didn't tell anyone to protect his family, so Kreacher's opinion didn't change...but since Harry was nice to him...he was nicer to Hermione even though she was a mudblood...

which I think we can safely say that if Sirius was nice to Kreacher, the elf would have repaid him with kindness also...

DeathEaterJ · 08-04-2007, 04:07 AM

fair enough... i just thought i would voice a different view on the matter...

mix things up a little bit.

Blackened · 08-04-2007, 11:19 AM

I'm gonna have to mostly agree with DeathEaterJ.

First off, Sirius was not a jerk to Kreacher. He treated him with indifference, and yes, most likely didn't see him as 'a being with feelings acute as a human's'. That, I believe, we can all agree on. Sirius was not a cruel man, he was kind to house-elves in general, as DD tells Harry at the end of OOTP. So why then his attitude towards Kreacher? The only reason why Sirius behaved like he did towards him was that he was a constant reminder of the household he loathed, in which he had always felt like a complete stranger.

And let's face it, if a positively ugly house-elf walked around me every day swearing and mentioning what his old mistress would do if she knew I was back, trying to steal back old Black heirlooms, and being generally uncourteous (to the point of utter rudeness) to my guests, including my godson, I don't suppose I would have smiled and said 'thank you, Kreacher, lovely to see you'.

I think we're making a saint-like figure out of Kreacher, which he is rather far from. He sold his master [even if he didn't agree with his beliefs, Sirius was still his master until the point of his death] to Voldemort, and upon mentioning it to DD, laughed his pillowcase off, clearly enjoying the possible outcome, Sirius' death. For a house-elf accustomed to physical pain and punishment [just look at what Voldemort made him do with that potion], he sure showed signs of incredible cruelty towards a man who while 'breaking his mistress' heart' and being probably rude to him and gave him a kick or two, did not do him irreparable damage. I don't think Sirius would have done the same, even for a being he deemed below him, such as Kreacher.

Then again, I'm pretty positive that had not Harry given him that locket, Kreacher would not have turned into the marvellous kitchen appliance that he did. It wasn't Harry's being nice to him per se that made Kreacher have a change of heart [Harry was nice in general to him, unlike Sirius, you might say], it was being offered the last possession of Regulus, Kreacher's truthful master. Obviously, you might say, but he DID turn out good in the end. Personally, when I look at occurences like that, I value more the reason why someone would turn good. And with Kreacher it wasn't love, loyalty or something else towards Harry, it always had been Regulus and the Black family [Sirius not included, of course].

And one other thing. Hermione mentions that even if Kreacher helped Regulus try and overcome Voldemort [the locket business], Regulus never shared his change of mind. Kreacher continued to believe in the Black family's pureblood mania and other mentionables. Does he really parrot Harry's beliefs now that he is his master? He might, seeing as though he does join the battle at the end. I find it hard to believe, even despite that incident. And Harry, however, will never be his true master. Kreacher will never cease to be loyal to Regulus and his mistress Black, the beliefs of which are pretty clear, even now.

A paralel can also be drawn between Kreacher and Dobby. They both served 2 of the most ancient, pureblood-maniacal families in Britain. Dobby, however, stood up to those concepts and tried to warn Harry of the dangers he faced, and helped him repeatedly, until he was set free, after which we know how loyal he has been, up to his end. Kreacher accepts the pureblood mania quite happily and it seems that he never does judge that he is being unfair to those he calls mudbloods and blood traitors. He follows that belief, he is loyal excessively even. This was just to illustrate that while serving a Dark wizard of sorts, a house-elf can still make use of its own mind, like Dobby. Of which Kreacher did not.

And even if Kreacher turned out acting nice towards Harry, though for the wrong reasons, how can that be applauded? If you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you, no matter what you think, what you do, even if you plan genocide in your basement. That just doesn't do. So Kreacher lacked affection. Thing is, so did Sirius. And 12 years in Azkaban has got to be worse than walking around your masters' home, talking to your old mistress' portrait. Hey, at least you've got company! xP

I'm not trying to prove that Sirius was perfect, or that Kreacher is the only one to blame. I think what makes Sirius such an enjoyable character is how human he actually is. He makes mistakes all the time, is a great philosopher, but fails to live up to some of those philosophies, has a case of arrested development, is as rash, moody and bitter as a teenager. He obviously has his faults, but what matters is that his heart is in the right place. Which, I'm sorry to say, but does not apply to Kreacher at all.

BrightestWitch · 08-05-2007, 06:03 AM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...I'm happy that we don't all agree. Lol! Thats why discussions are so fun!

!

Great points on both sides I think. ^.^ -huggles you all-

LadyNerd · 08-10-2007, 02:01 AM

*hugs Chris into a Bohemian Rhapsody*

That is a wonderful conclusion and I have to say that I completely agree with what you and DeathEaterJ have spoken of. Sirius saw Kreature as part of his past, his family, the very thing he ran away from and left behind. The only reason why Sirius was at the Black Family house to begin with was because it was a safe place for him to be, Kreature or no Kreature. Kreature is not a saint to me and never will be.

Sirius would have never done what Harry did, given the locket to Kreature. We also have to realize that Harry was not brought up in the magical world and given his past, he would do anything for anyone, for the most part. Harry was about giving things to those that deserved it and if you ask me, I think that Kreature did deserve the locket it. I would have done the same, but Harry never expect Kreature to turn and do the things he did.

prongs1295 · 08-10-2007, 09:24 PM

I have to agree with DeathEaterJ and the others. After many long lectures, that conclusion seems to make absolutely the most sense. Seeing Kreacher every day after being in prison for about 12 years, isn't exactly the most perfect thing ever. Like everyone's saying, Kreacher is one of the last things that reminds him of his family. The family of Blacks that criticized him time after time, for being in Gryffie and for making friends with muggle lovers. Like LadyNerd said, the reason, and only reason, that Sirius came back, was that it was the last place that anyone would expect him to be, which would make it the safest, and not many people know how to get into Grimmauld Place.
Being back in the place that you've been trying to escape from for practically your entire life is enough. But having Kreacher to talk about everything that the Blacks would have liked it to be, is too much and isn't exactly your idea of a cupcake event.

Not trying to say that Sirius is perfect and that Kreacher's terrible. But like DeathEaterJ, LadyNerd, and Blackened said. If Sirius was nice to Kreacher, it technically wouldn't make a difference. He's complex, like many of you guys were saying... Kreacher will always think of Regulus, Bellatrix, and Mrs. Black as his true masters, mainly Regulus but oh well. They were the first ones that were ever nice to him. That doesn't exactly go unnoticed. It's like making your first friend at a new school, or city, etc. Kreacher's only nice to Harry because he gave him the most prized possession Kreacher had left. It reminded him of Regulus and he probably felt that there was a need to be nice to Harry and pay his respects by fulfilling his duty as Harry's house-elf.

Bottom line for me is... even if Sirius was nice to Kreacher, which I think might be impossible for Sirius, it wouldn't make much of a difference, because Regulus and Bella beat him to it. I really don't think that kindness from Sirius, would keep Sirius alive.

I like discussions. It's like debating!

**Slytherin Fox** · 12-10-2007, 04:08 PM

It is indeed interesting how Kreacher's entire attitude and demeanor changed when he was shown kindness and respect towards Harry. Even though Sirius was a member of the family which Kreacher was placed to serve and I'm sure there were many other members of that family who did not treat him with respect, but I think a lot of that had to do with how they held Sirius is disdain and Kreacher was there to serve and had no choice but to at least feign respect. He didn't have to show Sirius anything at all when the rest of the family were holding such contempt and hatred towards him but Sirius had acted towards him in a more sensitive and kind manner, I have a feeling he would eventually have come around.

Eerised · 01-07-2008, 01:29 AM

So once I was on LJ and stalking my favourite fanfiction author and she had posted her thoughts on DH.

She had a few complaints but one of them was in regards to Kreacher. She felt that the message JK sent was, "Hey, kiddies, be nice to your slaves!" type of deal. Obviously, I don't think that was the intent. As we know, it is in a house-elves nature to care for humans and serve. I feel bad for them, obviously because of the whole punishing thing and all that but I thought she raised a good point.

With Sirius and Kreacher, I think it would be asking a lot for either of them to be nice to one another. Sirius saw Kreacher as a very unwelcome reminder of his life in the Black home and Kreacher wasn't exactly nice to him.

I think everyone raises really great points and in a way we are all right because we can't really be sure of anything for sure.

I don't think that Sirius being nice would have done that much in regards to Kreacher being nice or not. I do think it would have saved his life if he had been a little bit less hot headed and a lot nicer. Obviously Kreacher had been living on his own for a very long time so a lot of how he is is due to neglect. He's only had a portrait to talk to for years and years and the people he served were not exactly the best of people.

He certainly showed more respect to Harry once it was clear that his favourite master and Harry had the same thoughts in mind. Harry was going to finish what his favourite master started and Kreacher was given the fake locket as a peace offering. I do think that it would have been better if we had seen Harry and Kreacher's relationship go slowly. I think the one person that Kreacher could not hold a grudge against would be Hermione because she was the only one nice to him.

But because he is old, sort of insane and lonely, and obviously sentimnetal, I think Harry giving him the locket was like...coming home in a way. It was this piece of someone very important to him. I don't think Sirius ever could have given that to Kreacher. I think, that if Sirius had known what his brother had done, he would have been a bit resentful because his brother had never shown any signs of being against Voldemort and also, because that means that Regulus did more than Sirius to put a stop to Voldemort. I think he would have probably been able to make amends with his brother's memory, but without his brother alive they couldn't truly reconcile anything and he would just walk around thinking, "I was wrong. He did good. He did more than me."

So, even if Sirius knew, he wouldn't be so angry with his brother but a the sametime, he and his brother never had a good relationship. And then, Kreacher is still a reminder of his parents. Even knowing that their prodigal son was against Voldemort, Sirius has bad memories of them and of course, his brother.

Ugh. I don't know if any of this is making sense. I probably should be doing this when my head is clearer.

Basically, Sirius can't ever forget his family life, even if Regulus did something good and Kreacher is apart of that and thus he can't ever do for Kreacher what Harry did and Kreacher can't give Sirius the same loylaty he was willing to give to Harry because of that. I think in a way, Harry sort of became Kreacher's Regulus; like he was Regulus reincarnated for Kreacher. Kreacher did his best to be nice to Hermione, someone he had been taught to hate because of her blood; he was nice to Ron despite his 'Bloodtraitor' status and I think after a point he was able to love Harry. I think it would have taken years of work and kindness on Harr's part, but I think it would have happened.

;wekfja

Okay. So this is basically all I can think of right now because my head is just too fuzzy and I hope that was clear because I'm not sure.

^__^

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