graphic by Becky

A friend of mine once mentioned that they thought Hermione was a Mary Sue. For those who are unfamiliar with the term, here is the definition:

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.

So what do you think? Is Hermione one? If you think so, why? Why not? Is it a bad thing if she is? Discuss!

Nope, I don't think so. True Hermione was brilliant & all, but she isn't perfect. The obvious imperfection I found in her was jealousy as she got jealous so easily when someone else performed better than she did. I don't think being flawed is a bad thing because every human isn't perfect.

I don't think so either. Hermione was clever and top in class, but she was described as not exactly the prettiest in class and she also had a bit of a short temper. At the start of the first book she was noted as being quite bossy and a bit of a know-it-all. I'm sure that was just a passing thing that she grew out of, but it goes to show that not even Hermione Granger is perfect! I will say that she is a bit of a Mary-Sue in all the movies except the first one, though. But definitely not in the books.

But is being jealous enough to not make a character a Mary Sue? Plenty of other literary characters that are considered Mary Sues showed jealousy Not saying that I do not agree, just interested in you expanding on your idea here a bit more

I do agree that Hermione is a bit more of a Mary Sue in the films, especially in the third one where she becomes somewhat of a superwoman not that I had anything against her punching Draco in the face

However, do you agree or disagree that her know-it-all stance was a bit Mary Sue in the books? When it doubt, go to her because she knows all the answers sort of thing? While you make a valid point that good looks and being the most beautiful girl in the school were not included in her character description, making her less of the Mary Sue archetype, her boundless knowledge was a bit overkill at times.

At least she wasn't perfect in DADA, eh?

I don't think Hermione knowing as much as she does makes her a Mary Sue, mostly because it isn't like she knows so much and is able to cast so many advanced spells because she was just born like that. She knows so much because she actually studies and reads and rereads and practices and practices more... She pretty much devotes most of her time and focus and energy to these things. She works for it and that's why she's good.

And even then, she isn't good at everything. She's not as good as Harry is in DADA, and she's completely horrible at flying and Quidditch. She doesn't even like Quidditch all that much and we all know pretty much everyone likes Quidditch .

Plus, I would say that her being a "know-it-all" is a flaw, especially since she really acts like one. Harry and Ron found her annoying and didn't even want to be her friend because of it in the beginning, and they still got annoyed even afterwards (especially Ron).

Didn't she punch him in the book too? I thought she had... *goes to look*

Her most obvious flaw (at least in my opinion is) that she liked to stick her nose in other people's business which was really irksome. She had problems to remain patient like when Draco boasted off with Slytherin's Nimbus 2001, she tried to smartmouth him when keeping quiet & moving on was the best option. That means she sort of had ego problem too. Hermione relied too much on books that she wasn't that good at being street smart without Harry or Ron.

I don't really think she is... *thinkthinkthink* No, not at all...

She's got obvious character flaws, and really almost nobody wanted to be her friend in the beginning. She's actually bossy, annoying, et cetera. Doesn't mean she's not loveable, of course!

She's book smart, but not necessarily street smart. She actually had to pack all sorts of books for their trip, and seldom actually relies on her gut instincts. She's not exactly a Mary Sue cause she's good at stuff because she tries, and reads and tries again and again until she gets it.

She wasn't exactly pretty, either... except for the Yule Ball. She was never described as tall and athletic, with blue eyes and long smooth blonde hair. That, is incredibly Mary-Sue to me. Not Hermione with her bushy hair, petiteness and slightly large teeth.

Being a know-it-all isn't good, exactly. I guess she finds some satisfaction in being better than others. Maybe because she's really insecure?

I dunno, that's just my two cents.

I really hate referring to the movies, but I think most of the stuff I sait there... *points* is from what I remember in the books.

Those are excellent points! And it made me remember another thing about Hermione that could be considered a flaw - she won't believe something is true unless it's been proven in a book or is standing right there in front of her. Remember in the last book, she refused to believe that what Xenophilius Lovegood said about the Deathly Hallows was true? She didn't believe the Hallows existed at all because they're based on a supposedly ficitonal children's story and so there was no "proof" of their existence.

And while to some extent it was good that at least she tried to keep Harry's desire for the Hallows in check during that book, the fact that she won't believe something unless she can see it does limit her, in contrast to Luna who doesn't need proof or a book to ground her in her beliefs.

I definitely agree that Hermione's book knowledge was a little over-exaggerated, but when you look at it, book knowledge was basically all she had. Sure, she had bravery and some other stuff that made her a Gryffindor, but it was kind of all she had, especially in the first book. And Hermione is quite a bit of an overacheiver and if she gets anything less than an "O" she is upset. I'm just bringing that up...

P.S. I also agree she was a bit of a superwoman in the third movie, but it was odd, because it was also one of the only movies we saw her be a real girly-girl (crying into Ron's shoulder, etc.). I think they should have had one "Super-'Mione" movie, and one "Girly-Girl Defenseless Romantic Hermy" movie. It was weird when they had her one minute all strong and mighty, and then the next all helpless. And last time I checked, she wasn't like either of those in the books.

I think it's hard to clarify her as either. On the surface I would say that she does appear to be a Mary Sue, as she's good at practically everything and hates when anyone is better than her. But then when you go underneath the surface you have a different situation. Because while I'd say she is naturally smart, even with the amount of books she reads if she didn't have at least a small talent for it her grades would never be as good as they are, she isn't naturally smart about everything.

Also most Mary Sues tend to be quite vapid and the most popular person in the room. I don't think anyone would be able to successfully argue that those two things describe Hermione.

No I don't think so either. Because if she really was, she wouldn't have stood up to Ron or Harry at any time. She disapproved of their copying each other and her, she wasn't always happy with them at all times, especially when it came to Crookshanks, copying her school work, or when Ron was with Lavender.

Her flaws are what made her Hermione! They both had characteristic and adorableness, she was who she was because it was her!

I don't believe she is a Mary Sue...In the first book, well, she was something of a Mary Sue..But that,as Rowling says, was a way of hiding her lack of confidence in herself. Of course, she has some flaws, like any character would. She is too emotional, ambitious and sometimes a little jealous as well.

I believe that people actually feel she's a Mary Sue because she is much more frank and straight forward that any other character. For example, when Harry and Ron complain about Rita Skeeter spying on them, she reminds them that they were doing the same thing at the Yule Ball, eavesdropping on Hagrid and Madam Maxime.

Well..that's what I think...

I understand how someone may believe that she is a Mary Sue because she is always on top of the class and knowing all of the right answers. But, she is also being made fun of always, when I think of a Mary Sue I think of Perfect. And Hermione was always being made fun of for how smart she was and we know that she had feelings about that from the way she went into the bathroom and cried in the first book. I feel like even though she was smart and on top of everything that she might not have always liked it. Or that is at least how I interpreted it in a fanfic I wrote about her. Plus she wasn't the best at DADA even though in DA she would be learning the spells the quickest it was still her worst subject, and that shows that even though she seemed perfect she did have a flaw.

Plus she worried all of the time about everything that had to do with school even thought everyone else knew that she would do well, that was another one of her flaws.

The only part of the book I was really annoyed with her was when she told Professor McGonagall about the Firebolt which was confiscated, but I understood where she was coming from.

And she wasn't perfect. Intelligence does not mean perfection, it merely means intelligence, and that is shown in the books when she doesn't excel in some of the Potions, like the Felix Felicis, and some of the DADA stuff. So she isn't perfect and she does need to fix things.

She also is not socially perfect - almost far from it, especially in the first books. She found it hard to make friends, and often fought against them due to her being unable to comprehend those social norms, like dobbing and poking her nose into other people's business etc.

I think Hermione is brilliant, but I don't think she's a Mary Sue. She's obviously afraid of failure and is competitive. Those things make her work hard, but they also make it harder for her to relate with others and be understood as well as how Ron and Harry do (especially during the first books; though she matures as she grows older). She's also bossy which is annoying, even to Harry and Ron. There are many sides of her and I think deeper reasons for her competitive, hardworking, and bossy nature. It's just that her intelligence 'outshines' them all I guess. It's one of her best qualities. That and being a great friend.

^ I was reading your thoughts about how she gets better as she matures etc. and it just reminds me of Sheldom Cooper
Through his friends and Penny he has come to learn how to be less socially awkward!

But I loved seeing that through the books and movies. Maybe she was just used to being an only child and never had the other sibling for levelling out.

In my personal opinion the perception of Mary Sue's is a bit skewed here.

Hermione grows and changes and has depth and while, yes she is a bit... perfectish sometimes, nearly the only thing she is in common with other WELL KNOWN Sue's (Like Bella Swan) is that she is a female character in a leading role (of sorts).

Her being intelligent does not make her a Sue. Her being able to best the boys and do spellwork better does NOT make her a Sue, albeit rather ANNOYING, not Sue status.

Thanks for clarifying the Mary Sue I really didn't catch on with it haha.

She is so much better than Be... wait - not the place for this!

From what you said then, she most certainly is not a Mary Sue. I think readers have the ability to dislike her because of her being nosy, and more interested in rules. She doesn't live to please people, unlike certain oooothers!

*ponders*

there is a site out there that describes Sues (or Stus for guys) and having read through them, practically every type of character ever written had a Sue/ Stu equivalent. so did i see a Mary Sue (or equivalency name) for Hermione?

well yes.

Hermione can be called your atypical smart, capable chick that intimidates the boys. doesnt make her a badly written charrie. also there are people in real life very similar to her (if not exactly like her). shouldnt that be enough justification to say that she is well written, regardless of the fact that she fits a certain "Sue"?

besides, every kind of character-- and in truth most human personalities-- have already been classified and has a name. personally i've never really minded the whole Sue/ Stu studies because to me, if the character is relatable, or can grab hold of your reader and take them onto an amazing adventure, then thats whats important.

I, personally, think that Mary Sue is a term that is thrown around far too freely these days. THere are also FAR too many TROPES for Mary Sue now. Sighs. Ridiculous. With this way of thinking EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER EVER MADE can somehow be categorized to be a Sue/Stu.

I will find an article Ern shared with me yesterday and perhaps it can help ppl see what I am trying to say here... Hmmm... *goes to search*

But yeah calling a charrie a Sue/Stu is actually quite demeaning and it has always irked me a bit.

Erin...you mention of Bella reminded me of THIS picture. But that is another discussion all on its own *saves for a later thread* and no, I am not talking about having a discussion about how much BETTER Hermione is than Bella.

But I would be super interested in that article if you can find it

No I don't think Hermione is a mary sue at all. She isn't perfect like many of you have already said. Even if she is book smart, can do well with homework, classwork, etc., she isn't the best at DADA, see is known to be not so great at flying and she doesn't agree with anything. She was known first to be a bossy little girl, personaily I think she was just trying to get her point across a bit and tell everyone what would happen if..., what is right from wrong, and much more. The last thing I would think of Hermione being is a Mary Sue.

Perhaps because everyone thinks she's a know-it-all type person, she feels she has to continue portraying that? Maybe she feels that she's gotta live up to that expectation and tries super hard to do so. I wonder if she ever feels like just throwing up the books, screaming and doing something just out there, something no one would ever expect.

Like not study for her exams!