Latest Site Notices

muggles_are_underrated · 02-12-2005, 08:33 PM

I'm wondering what other people think the Veil is in the Department of Mysteries.

Until recently I have avoided thinking about it because I just don't understand it.

I am thinking it is a doorway to the afterlife that allows for communication between the living and the dead and thats why there was seating around it - wizards who are studying it come and listen.

What do you all think it is?

Here's the text from OoTP for you to scan: US version Paperback pg 773-775

Quote:

This room was larger than the last, dimly lit and rectangular, and the center of it was sunken, forming a great stone pit some twenty feet below them. They were standing on the topmost tier of what seemed to be stone benches running all around the room and descending in steep steps like an amphitheater, or the courtroom in which Harry had been tried by the Wizengamot....Unsupported by any surrounding wall, the archway was hung with a hung with a tattered black curtain or veil, which despite the complete stillness of the cold surrounding air, was fluttering very slightly as though it had just been touched.
"Who's there?" said Harry, jumping down onto the bench below. There was no answering voice, but the veil continued to flutter and sway.
"Careful!" whispered Hermione.
Harry scrambled down the benches one by one . . . ."Sirius?" Harry spoke again, but much more quietly now that he was nearer.
He had the strangest feeling that there was someone standing right behind the veil on the other side of the archway....he edged around the dais, but there was nobody there.
"Let's go," called Hermione from halfway up the stone steps. "This isn't right, Harry, come on, let's go. . . ."
She sounded scared, much more scared than she had in the room where the brains swam, yet Harry thought the archway had a kind of beauty about it, old though it was. The gently rippling veil intrigued him; he felt a very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through it.
"Harry, let's go okay?" said Hermione more forcefully.
"Okay," he said, but he did not move. He had just heard something. There were faint whispering, murmuring noises coming from the other side of the veil.
"What are you saying?" he said very loudly, so that the words echoed all around the surrounding stone benches.
"Nobody's talking, Harry!" said Hermione, now moving over to him.
"Someone's whispering behind there," he said, moving out of her reach and continuing to frown at the veil. "Is that you, Ron?"
"I'm here, mate," said Ron, appearing around the side of the archway.
"Can't anyone else hear it?" Harry demanded, for the whispering and murmuring was becoming louder; without really meaning to put it there, he found his foot was on the dais.
"I can hear them too," breathed Luna, joining them around the side of the archway and gazing at the swaying veil. "There are people in there!"
....On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too.

Sorry, but I had to leave a few bits out since it was such a long passage.

Ilovegeorgeweasely · 02-17-2005, 02:34 PM

It is I think a curtain between the living life and the after life where sirius goes when he is killed in the duel in the department of mysteries.
Siriusn goes "beyond the veil" and I think that Harry says to Lupin if my memory is correct that he can see Sirius beyond the veil

PHLphlyest · 02-17-2005, 02:51 PM

There was seats around it? *needs to go back and read the book again* But I agree with the portal idea. Both Harry and Luna could hear voices coming from there. (either that's a good thing or they're both going mad lol) Maybe only certain people can hear the voices? Like with the thersals only certain people can see them. Yes that has confused me as well...in fact i'm still confused. Maybe professor Trelawney knows.

Therese_Lionheart · 02-17-2005, 06:15 PM

all around the veil there were stairs in a sircle, like big stairs seats i think... I don't know what those are called sorry

reasons to why we only know that Luna and HArry could hear the voices could be that JK Rowling is trying to hide something again. JK Rowling:"Harry could only hear the voices because he is disfunctional." Fan: "But Luna heard them too omg i can remember cause i read it in the book!" JK Rowling: "But Luna is Loony Luna

"
See? oh she is so sly that woman

Meh, I don't know. I wodner why LUna heard the voices too. Nobody else heard them did they? (A little while since i read that in the book) And wasn't Harry affected in some way by the veil when he first approached it in the department of mysteries? I mean, he got sort of uncaring about stuff or something didn't he. Why did it not affect Luna? Nothing seems to affect Luna much does it... Not the thestrals, not the veil. why is she so used to theese death "omens".

Ally_W · 02-17-2005, 06:19 PM

Hmm.. yeah i agree that behind it has something to do with death, but i dont think you can travel through it or anything. C'est tres mystérieux.

*waits and waits for HBP to come out*

muggles_are_underrated · 02-17-2005, 07:48 PM

It seems that Harry was drawn to the veil sortof like a moth to a flame. Like he had trouble resisting it. Luna was almost the same but not sure since the books are written from Harry's perspective. Also affected were Ginny and Neville - sortof entranced by it.

I thought those all might have been affected because of death's they have experienced in their lives ('cept Ginny?) But maybe the possession by Voldemort did that.

It made Hermione scared/fearful.

We're not told what Ron thought of it. But what I thought was interesting too is that Harry thinks he hears both Sirius' and Ron's voices coming from it.

Therese_Lionheart · 02-17-2005, 08:00 PM

no way? oooh i think i remember that.... Last time i read OotP. I think harry was like.... Is that you Ron? or something..I was like....... eek...=/
So ok Harry heard Ron's and Sirius' voices coming from the veil.. he thought atleast... But what if he did hear them. Would it be because both Ron and Sirius dies soon? That is if behind the veil is the world of dead ppl. Is it timeless behind the veil? in that case everybody would be there because we all die sometime right... I guess. But the "world" behind the veil is just abit ahead of us. And Sirius' and Ron's voices came from there because they die first...no bah i managed to make no sense didn't i.
hmmm. well nevermind all that. Say it's because Ron will also fall behind the veil then. They arn't dead or antyhing but trapped. that seems sort of weird too, i doubt any more dudes are gonna fall through that veil now after sirius did.
besides that still dosn't tell us why we heard their voices coming from there before they fell through it. ah ffs... the veil is just one big ? in my humble brain.

muggles_are_underrated · 02-17-2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therese_Lionheart

no way? oooh i think i remember that.... Last time i read OotP. I think harry was like.... Is that you Ron? or something..I was like....... eek...=/
So ok Harry heard Ron's and Sirius' voices coming from the veil.. he thought atleast... But what if he did hear them. Would it be because both Ron and Sirius dies soon? That is if behind the veil is the world of dead ppl. Is it timeless behind the veil? in that case everybody would be there because we all die sometime right... I guess. But the "world" behind the veil is just abit ahead of us. And Sirius' and Ron's voices came from there because they die first...no bah i managed to make no sense didn't i.
hmmm. well nevermind all that. Say it's because Ron will also fall behind the veil then. They arn't dead or antyhing but trapped. that seems sort of weird too, i doubt any more dudes are gonna fall through that veil now after sirius did.
besides that still dosn't tell us why we heard their voices coming from there before they fell through it. ah ffs... the veil is just one big ? in my humble brain.

That's exactly what I was wondering about too. I started thinking about this stuff when I was looking over at the thread in the 7th book forum about whether Ron was going to die or not. No one had mentioned it as a sign that he was going to die, but I always had thought it was a hint ever since I read it the first time.

I should really put in the text from this passage so people can scan it for themselves. *goes off to get the book* - be right back.

HPObsessed88 · 02-18-2005, 05:47 AM

Ok, i think that the veil is the afterlife and one can be lost forever by just going through it n there's no way out bc i think jk has made it clear that sirius i dead and will not and cannot be brought bak. after reading some of the other posts, i realized some stuff i agree with thos who say that jk might be foreshadowing ron's death (nooooo,

*tear*) n since sirius already died ron might to (i am referring to the part in the book where harry says "is that u Ron/ Sirius?" ) and also i think its interesting how someone pointed out that the steps by the veil may be to signify that perhaps wizards would sit on the steps and it would be some sort of spectacle. And i am also wonderin y only Harry and Luna could hear the ppl, and i was also wonderin about the convo they had during the last feast of the year. Well thats wat i think and i hope jk doesnt kill of ron.

Hoggywarts · 03-05-2005, 07:39 AM

It's a doorway to the afterlife...is what I voted for...that's the only option that seems real!!!

Laieesha · 03-05-2005, 08:06 AM

I voted for the wizard form of death penalty, only because I'm thinking of the purpose of the seats surrounding the dais. Maybe it's like the Wizengamot, only instead of a trial, it's the carrying out of the death sentence? But wow, I never thought of the whole Ron reference. Could it be foreshadowing his inevitable fate? Hhmm.. and about Luna, sometimes I think she just says things, just to say it. So maybe the thestrals she can see, but maybe with the voices behind the veil, she was just saying it so Harry won't look crazy? I don't know, she's still a mystery to me. I still don't know WHAT she is. If it is a doorway to the afterlife, then it's a one way door, isn't it? You can't get back out, so why the voices??

Anyway, it's a little creepy, and it's about midnight right now, and just thinking about it is giving me the creeps! I think it's time to go to bed. I'm out!

EmmaRiddle · 03-05-2005, 08:07 AM

I can't vote because my theory involves two of the afore mentioned things. I think it used to be the wizard death penalty.

But then a bigger part of me thinks that wouldn't fit with the DoM - Department of Mysteries. They investigate things that are prfound, like that love room, so part of me thinks they make have been trying to create a portal through which to reach the dead. I think it backfired on the Unspeakables who were doing that -- I also believe that could be how Mrs Lovegood might've died -- and thus what they created grew a mind and will off its own and is now nothing more than an echo of the dead which no living being can pass through and survive which in a way makes it sort of like a death penalty but one that's unused -- as they store even the most dangerous criminals in Azkaban rather than killing them.

Laieesha · 03-05-2005, 08:25 PM

But isn't the Dementor's kiss worse than being dead? Hence, it's worse to be in Azkaban than be "beyond the veil". Well, we don't really know what's behind it, so we won't know which is worse. One can be "dead" behind the veil, but what if they can still see and hear the living, but we can only hear murmurs and whispers from them? That's gotta be worse because you are aware of what's going on, unlike Azkaban where you're like the living dead, moving, breathing but not living....

fleurdelacour · 03-05-2005, 08:31 PM

The location makes me think it used to be a execution-type place. And also the fact that the curtains are old and tattered - the death penalty in Britain stopped being used in the 1950s.

PhelpsTwinsFan · 03-05-2005, 08:40 PM

It's a doorway to the afterlife. I guess

Petrovich · 03-05-2005, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therese_Lionheart

Meh, I don't know. I wodner why LUna heard the voices too. Nobody else heard them did they? (A little while since i read that in the book) And wasn't Harry affected in some way by the veil when he first approached it in the department of mysteries? I mean, he got sort of uncaring about stuff or something didn't he. Why did it not affect Luna? Nothing seems to affect Luna much does it... Not the thestrals, not the veil. why is she so used to theese death "omens".

Luna was affected by veil, it`s just not showed directly. Remember, Ron taking Luna to quit, and Hermione was persuading Harry?
She may be used to death because she saw lots of it, like some people. For example, doctors, policemens and so on. That`s just a suggestion.

muggles_are_underrated · 03-05-2005, 09:10 PM

I think as well as experiencing her mother's death to the point that she can see thestrals, Luna's "open-mind" makes her able to hear the voices. With Harry, the voices got louder as he listenend to them so it seems that if you made a real study of listening, you might actually be able to understand what the voices are saying?

I'm somewhat torn between the idea of it being a death penalty and it being purely a way for death to be studied. I think Marcella Riddle could be right - maybe it was created in order to study death? There must be some reason they keep it around as it is dangerous.

Petrovich · 03-05-2005, 09:16 PM

^Well, I don`t really know.....Marcella is right, possible. But the question is: how are you going to study death? Even in magic world? And not die?

Laieesha · 03-05-2005, 09:59 PM

If they were studying death, I believe it will be about how to COME BACK from it. If it's just death in general, well then they can always ask the ghosts that roam around. Maybe the veil was a form of death penalty, that turned into an object of study because of the voices. Since it's obviously one way, maybe somehow they're trying to figure out how to make it a two-way door. If the voices can still be heard, maybe they're just looming somewhere near?

felicia1995 · 03-05-2005, 11:58 PM

None of the above, but i think it is....a semi-final resting place. Like if you fall behind the Veil, you die for a year or two, then are reborn as the same person-different look. Kinda like a pheonix.

muggles_are_underrated · 03-06-2005, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felicia1995

None of the above, but i think it is....a semi-final resting place. Like if you fall behind the Veil, you die for a year or two, then are reborn as the same person-different look. Kinda like a pheonix.

That's an interesting take on it - can you please tell me what makes you think that? Have you found other sections of the books that hint at this or something?

Quote:

If it's just death in general, well then they can always ask the ghosts that roam around.

Well, I'm not sure the ghosts even really know what REAL death is - Sir Nicholas seems to indicate that a person becomes a ghost when they choose not to move on to the "real death". Ghosts seem to keep on living except as a mere shadow of their formal selves containing their soul. Whereas I would think that "real death" means giving up your physical body all together and not being bound to the living anymore.

Do you guys feel that if it is a doorway to the afterlife - is it the ONLY doorway? For example, does everyone who dies soul pass through it? Or only those who actually physically pass through it?

ShadowThestral · 03-06-2005, 02:33 AM

I think that it may be like some kinda portal to another dimension

nah, jk it could be somthing that he is trapped in and cant get out.

EmmaRiddle · 03-06-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laieesha

But isn't the Dementor's kiss worse than being dead? Hence, it's worse to be in Azkaban than be "beyond the veil". Well, we don't really know what's behind it, so we won't know which is worse. One can be "dead" behind the veil, but what if they can still see and hear the living, but we can only hear murmurs and whispers from them? That's gotta be worse because you are aware of what's going on, unlike Azkaban where you're like the living dead, moving, breathing but not living....

Not everyone in Azkaban gets the Dementor's Kiss, that's only reserved for the worst people. Not even those 10 DE's who escaped got that.

Luna, Harry & Neville were affected by the veil. Ginny was slightly affected too.

Quote:

I'm somewhat torn between the idea of it being a death penalty and it being purely a way for death to be studied. I think Marcella Riddle could be right - maybe it was created in order to study death? There must be some reason they keep it around as it is dangerous.

To me, it makes more sense for it to be an experiment gone wrong because the Department of Mysteries is full of experiments! But then it was in the room with Dai's which makes it like a death penalty thing.

Quote:

Marcella is right, possible. But the question is: how are you going to study death? Even in magic world? And not die?

Death can be studied. They study love in the DoM. But, like I said, I think it may have backfired and possibly Luna's mum was one of the people involved in it and that's how she died. That could also explain why Luna is so sure of what the veil is.

Quote:

If they were studying death, I believe it will be about how to COME BACK from it. If it's just death in general, well then they can always ask the ghosts that roam around.

The ghosts don't know about death. NHN admitted that. He said he does not know what lies behind death because he chose to stay as an echo of himself rather than die and 'move on' properly. That's why Harry was so frustrated by him; Nick couldn't give him the answers he wanted whereas Luna could.

Quote:

If the voices can still be heard, maybe they're just looming somewhere near?

I think the experiment went too far, they discovered too much and it backfired as a lesson to those people who meddles in it, that some things aren't to be discovered. I definitely think the voices are of those from death, not those who've fallen through it.

Quote:

i think it is....a semi-final resting place. Like if you fall behind the Veil, you die for a year or two, then are reborn as the same person-different look. Kinda like a pheonix.

That'd contradict Jo Rowling. Sirius is gone. Full stop. No coming back.

Quote:

Well, I'm not sure the ghosts even really know what REAL death is - Sir Nicholas seems to indicate that a person becomes a ghost when they choose not to move on to the "real death". Ghosts seem to keep on living except as a mere shadow of their formal selves containing their soul. Whereas I would think that "real death" means giving up your physical body all together and not being bound to the living anymore.

You took the words right out of my mouth!!

Quote:

Do you guys feel that if it is a doorway to the afterlife - is it the ONLY doorway?

I think the Unspeakables were trying to create a portal to the afterlife and it backfired. Like when people try to make robots in films, alot of the time so much intelligence is put into something that it gains a mind of its own and so takes it own orders perse.

Quote:

For example, does everyone who dies soul pass through it? Or only those who actually physically pass through it?

I don't think it's something all the dead pass through. I'm moving away from the death sentence theory because surely they would've used that for evil people like Bellatrix etc...? I just think it echoes the voices of those dead, for those who go near it, which tempts them, which is a part of the 'thing' having a life of its own and getting back at those who were so curious as to make the thing in the first place.

muggles_are_underrated · 03-06-2005, 06:37 PM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcella_Riddle

I think the experiment went too far, they discovered too much and it backfired as a lesson to those people who meddles in it, that some things aren't to be discovered. I definitely think the voices are of those from death, not those who've fallen through it.

The only problem I have with this is that it appears to be too old to have been created by unspeakables. I think it must have been created loooooonnnnng ago - and maybe it was discovered and brought to the DOM for study.

Lily_Potter_Evans · 03-06-2005, 06:39 PM

Maybe its like a doorway to another demention or someting like that.

Latest Site Notices

Latest Harry Potter News

Latest FanFics

Latest Forum Posts

Latest Games

Hogwarts RPG

Ministry RPG

Members