Where does it say that? I checked PS and it's just a bit of dialogue. Harry never claims to feel that way. "brisk" "businesslike" "frown" Well, Harry half worked it out for himself. Maybe she thought that by telling him what he didn't do, she would make him insecure. Just because they didn't notice doesn't mean she was hiding it. They never asked. Well really, what else was he going to say? Harry didn't know either. Of course there are. But none has such strong grounding and chemistry as H/Hr and you can't deny that. Ron and Hermione are too often at odds. I think the Yule Ball was where Ron first wanted Hermione. He was angry with Krum and Hermione and bitter for himself. But I don't think he was most in love with her then.
Wow. Er... let's not go there?

Exactly. And, at the same time as they're waxing lyrical about Ginny's strength and maturity, they're insinuating that she told a pointless and childish lie when they have no reason at all to believe she was being untruthful.
Oooh, nasty - sports? Umm... Have any unpleasant things happened to me lately? Er- I have a cold, and The Streets of Ankh-Morpork is gone from my local bookstore, and... I ripped my school skirt yesterday - halfway up the thigh, slipped on a step and my English teacher told me off about it next class. What was I supposed to do, phone home for a sewing kit?! (sorry, i don't like my english teacher) I think we can all agree on that.

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Too true Long live the Trio.

Yup yup.
No, I was banking on major R/Hr in OotP. The first time I read it I was sure I'd missed something. I was one of those nutters who bought it THE MOMENT IT CAME OUT and read like a demon till five in the morning, then finished the bugger over breakfast three hours later. I think I got through the rest of the day on sherbet.
Anyway. Subsquent readings proved me right - and more than that, there was a very definite H/Hr vibe in some scenes. Now, I was as stubborn as you lot (except for H/G. I never believed in that.) and was constantly debating ships at breaktime with one of my friends, who is H/Hr but has since gone goth so she doesn't talk about HP any more. In public, at least. So I found myself changing ships; I know all the arguments but I don't really believe them any more.
Call me a traitor, call me what ever you want - I've had some nasty PMs about this. I don't care. I don't know you. You don't know where I live. So tough!

Yeah, I noticed that too. I think it's all in the way stuff is worded. Will, on the other hand - oh, he gets on my nerves at the best of times. I think he spoke for us both when he said:
At the start of the post I am so nice, then by the last few I am about ready to jump through the screen and throw my copy of OotP at ya
Not till I get some bloody backup!

~Laura needs sleep

^ sniggers* i think that this debate not being as heated as before is a good thing dont you?
no, i was talking abt ron and hermoine. you think id go trying to analyse how the relationship b/w the posters on this thread has changed as their world changes?
lol. i could do, if i was my useless jobless self but i have exams and....(well you know how THAT is)

Exactly. No one argues with their dog...[mainly because it would be one sided]. It's an old trope of romance books anyway, and it's grounded in real life...there's a fine line between love and hate. As I always say you wouldn't argue so passionately with someone unless you cared for them...I wonder if that means Will and Laura like each other?

Fear not sweet child, book 6 will dispel all doubts.

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Hang on, when you were 14 would your parents have let you go visit some 18-year-old boy in a foreign country? Not a chance!

Mine would but were liberals, and Mexico's like two minutes away...anyway back to ship. Hermione could have said as much, when Krum was trying to invite her she didn't really much care did he...though that could have been because of the fish head...he didn't still have the fish head did he?

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On those criteria. But the fact is that Hermione meets all but the first one.

That's what I get for being so vague...

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No, see that's where I have the problem. I have yet to see any evidence FROM OOTP that shows Hermione liking Ron. I think there were feelings there in GoF but, like you said, she couldn't hope for reciprocation. Now she's getting over Ron - I attribute that blush to the fact that she used to like him cos that can stay embarrassing no matter how over someone you are.

Okay you win...I am going to go back again and reread the book, and I'm taking notes this time I swear *standing in a barren field of radishes, fist clutched and raised to the sky as the sun sets down in the distance, silouhetted, the scene in full technicolor glory* As God is my witness...I will find R/Hr proof in Ootp... *cue Max Steiner's theme*

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Exactly, and I don't think Hermione mothers him, as such. Caring for someone is not the same as mothering them.

I love my friends and my friends love me, and they care for me, and they nag at me but the way Hermione carries on with Harry is beyond caring, it's outright...she thinks she's his brain..."here let me make your decisions for you", his nagging voice sounds just like her. She doesn't act that way with anyone else, she deeply cares for Harry because he's always in danger but despite the fact that she's seen him get himself out of it more often than not, granted with her help, I mean really, it's beyond caring romantically. Mrs. Weasley doesn't carry on as much.

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But they weren't to know that. For all she knew, that broom was going to throw Harry off from 50' in the air. She didn't want him to get hurt, but she had to risk getting on his bad side to protect him. She does this again in OotP.

Case in point. She takes all the decision making out of his hands...I mean she worries about his grades...if she asked if he was wearing clean underwear I wouldn't be shocked.

Romantically of course...I mean really if all I get is a kiss at the end of book seven then I'm going to just die...right there...from the sheer exasperation.

You easily hold your own. Me I'm like the titanic...Laura you're the iceberg...[and I mean that in the most flattering way possible].

Seriously on this point I have to agree with you 100%...well maybe 99.9% out of respect for my allies...allow me to illucidate, not to be confused with hallucinating which I do for fun...Harry is going to war in book 6 as we all know, that point no one can argue because wether he goes looking for trouble a la DOM or it comes looking for him a la Triwizard Cup Tournament he's going to be involved. We can all agree on that point no? That said, Harry will need a general [metaphorically speaking] which is the role Hermione as his second in commnand so aptly proved herself capable of with the creation and organization of the DA. All of this is obvious in Ootp, what I would argue Laura you see as H/Hr. And where, pray tell, does this leave our red haired, best friend, loyal to a fault, Chuddley Cannons fan, loves Hermione but doesn't know what to do about it, sidekick? Quite simply in the role he was always meant to play...the King's side knight.

Ron's qualities do not lie in his spectacular mind, or his heroic zeal, but in his unwavering loyalty [in GoF he really felt Harry was lying to him about putting his name in the cup, thus he felt he was being betrayed, and he apologized quickly on realizing he was being a prat]. Harry needs them both by his side, easily. Does he love Hermione, yes, but he loves her mind, and he knows she's usually right but still he does things that go against his better judgement [and her common sense]. She will be his advisor [a role you can't argue she's always played] but not his girlfriend.

Incindiary enough for you Shannon. Let the arguing begin. Just don't hit too hard Laura, I bruise easily.

:oops: This one, and you know what...you're not confused I am , I think LupinJr posted this actually...really very good, try it with toffee covered broccoli...

http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?...hiprh&st=angua

I'm such a dork, I swear I need sleep.

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I wonder if that means Will and Laura like each other?

This has actuallybeen brought up before; a previous debater compared us to Ron and Hermione. I said fine, Hermione doesn't like Ron.
I never understood this whole "they argue so they're in love" thing. I argue with a lot of people, it just means we disagree. It's not chemistry, it's annoyance.

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Fear not sweet child, book 6 will dispel all doubts.

And the same to you.

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Mine would but were liberals, and Mexico's like two minutes away...anyway back to ship. Hermione could have said as much, when Krum was trying to invite her she didn't really much care did he...though that could have been because of the fish head...he didn't still have the fish head did he?

Er... probably not. Hey, has anyone else noticed the striking similarity between Krum and Teenage Snape? Go read the descriptions, it's uncanny.
I doubt Hermione would've wanted to go anyway - how awkward would it be spending the summer around someone who likes you a LOT more than you like them... oops, that's exactly what happened, isn't it?

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That's what I get for being so vague...

Yep. And as for 'athletic', he just likes talking about Quidditch. Hermione has never missed one of his games, even when they aren't speaking. The only time she didn't arrive in time was when she was Petrified which is a pretty good excuse.

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Okay you win...I am going to go back again and reread the book, and I'm taking notes this time I swear *standing in a barren field of radishes, fist clutched and raised to the sky as the sun sets down in the distance, silouhetted, the scene in full technicolor glory* As God is my witness...I will find R/Hr proof in Ootp... *cue Max Steiner's theme*

Oh, there's plenty of R/Hr. Just not from Hermione's side. You know, I actually did that once? Without the field, obviously - farmers round here would probably shoot you. I read OotP one time taking notes for every ship moment. But notebook ended up going in the wash with my blazer. Smart, eh?

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I love my friends and my friends love me, and they care for me, and they nag at me but the way Hermione carries on with Harry is beyond caring, it's outright...she thinks she's his brain..."here let me make your decisions for you", his nagging voice sounds just like her. She doesn't act that way with anyone else, she deeply cares for Harry because he's always in danger but despite the fact that she's seen him get himself out of it more often than not, granted with her help, I mean really, it's beyond caring romantically. Mrs. Weasley doesn't carry on as much.

I think it started as fear: for a long time Harry vastly underestimated the danger he was in. Hermione kept an eye on him: look at the Firebolt incident. But I think that the closer she looked, the more her feelings changed...

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Case in point. She takes all the decision making out of his hands...I mean she worries about his grades...if she asked if he was wearing clean underwear I wouldn't be shocked.

I would! I'd be like, how does Hermione know about the state of his underwear? *removes mind from gutter*
Yes, I would have been so ****** with Hermione over the Firebolt thing, but the important point is that he came to see that she really did have his best interests at heart. Ron never did, and that counts against R/Hr as a whole. He can't accept it when she's right, even if it's saved his life.

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Romantically of course...I mean really if all I get is a kiss at the end of book seven then I'm going to just die...right there...from the sheer exasperation.

Imagine Harry got with Cho at the end of Book 7? And all this was in vain? I'd scream. You'd probably hear it and I'm in Ireland.

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You easily hold your own. Me I'm like the titanic...Laura you're the iceberg...[and I mean that in the most flattering way possible].

Oh well thanks.

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Seriously on this point I have to agree with you 100%...well maybe 99.9% out of respect for my allies...allow me to illucidate, not to be confused with hallucinating which I do for fun...Harry is going to war in book 6 as we all know, that point no one can argue because wether he goes looking for trouble a la DOM or it comes looking for him a la Triwizard Cup Tournament he's going to be involved.

Triwizard's every four years. I think Book 6 will be more about protecting Harry from his own wrath as well as Voldemort. About Easter Book 7 is where he goes to war, cos that's where Dumbledore dies.

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That said, Harry will need a general [metaphorically speaking] which is the role Hermione as his second in commnand so aptly proved herself capable of with the creation and organization of the DA. All of this is obvious in Ootp, what I would argue Laura you see as H/Hr. And where, pray tell, does this leave our red haired, best friend, loyal to a fault, Chuddley Cannons fan, loves Hermione but doesn't know what to do about it, sidekick? Quite simply in the role he was always meant to play...the King's side knight.

The very name of Ronald means 'king's advisor'. Ron's going to show a whole new side of himself in Book 6 and I can't wait. Hermione's the sensible one, Ron's the passionate one. He's going to have a demon on both shoulders, egging him on in different directions.

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She will be his advisor [a role you can't argue she's always played] but not his girlfriend.

Yeah well where does that put Ginny? A kind of sub-Ron, looking for revenge for her broken bones; nobody could be as close to Sirius as Harry was. Yes, there's Lupin, but Lupin is better able to control his emotions.

Fair enough. I still want good, solid proof.

No, I understand what you're saying. If I had more time, I was going to write that. But it wasn't all harry and you know it. They are the Trio for a reason, this is more an argument for the Trio. Harry is not the one who got them to be friends...

Yes, I can hear you saying a bunch of hoo-haa, and I expect it when you reply. However, without Harry, they wouldn't have become friends, but look at my avatar, minus the last one because you'll go off...

Meeting you was fate. Now, Harry had nothing to do with their meeting. She just barged in the compartment to find a toad.

Becoming your friend was choice. And it was. Harry and Hermione never became friends out of the blue. They became friends after the Troll incident, where they both saved her...not just Harry. And if Harry and Hermione had been so much closer, that doesn't mean that she had to be Ron's friend. She could have just ignored him in the first place. She chose to be Ron's friend, and it had nothing to do with Harry's benefit.

Falling in love with you was completely beyond my control. And when they do, when anyone does, it is true.

The point is that Harry isn't responsible for creating the Trio. Ron was Harry's instant friend. Hermione was the annoying pest they both disliked until they both saved her, Ron more than Harry, and they became friends from then on. Hermione didn't become Harry's friend before she became Ron's. Reread PS/SS, and you'll see you can't twist it.

True. But she nags Ron, she doesn't baby him like she does Harry. Anyway, I think she's more exasperated with Ron because even though he tries to stay on harry's good side, he doesn't give a hoot about setting Hermione straight. He doesn't like being nagged and he lets her know. That's the difference. It is a constant battle between the two...all's fair in love and war.

Yeah, but are you a boy? No. Girls are more emotional than boys, and it is widely unofficially unexceptable for boys to cry or show weakness...you know that. It is the culture of today that boys are to remain tough and basically cold-hearted until one of the fairer sex breaks their heart of stone. Even mighty Harry doesn't want anyone to know he cries. That's not knocking boys, that's knocking society and its expectations.

Yes, she does, but that is just showing friendship...not romance. If H/H went on a date, and she started, Harry would want out, and so would any other guy. But I don't see Hermione nagging Ron in a romantic setting. With Ron, she would try to be feminine, while being embarrassed with butterflies. With Harry, I think she would be nervous, feeling like she wants to throw up, so she nags out of nervousness. I don't know, but that's how I see it.

i think you are misssing the point. Yes, Harry and Hermione are close friends. No one is denying that. They have their moments, Harry and Ron have theirs and Ron and Hermione have theirs. But just because Harry and Hermione had a few more moments than Ron and Harry in OotP doesn't mean that Hermione is going to be second in command like Kloves fantasizes. Ron comes before Hermione always.

He probably knew, like Hermione did, that Harry would be upset with them for being together while he was stuck at the Dursleys, but he decided to give Harry room and space before he was ready to be welcoming and friendly. I know I hate people crowded around me talking on and on or trying to make me talk when I'm in a bad mood. And Hermione was trying to sugar-coat it all and be cheery when Harry knew perfectly well it wasn't, which I think is one of the reasons he began screaming.

Yes, and by making him insecure would give her the opportunity to get in there and talk herself up. Harry knew, yes, but if it weren't for Hermione's push, he may have brushed it off.

but if he was really concerned, he would have not been thinking about Cho or had a wandering mind.

Arguing against it is not denying it. But anyway, Ron and Hermione have affection behind those bickerings. Their only big fights were in PoA and GoF(which was not very long). And, if you ask me, the fact that Harry and Hermione never fight is unhealthy. Harry yells at her for things, but she tries to soothe it over and avoid. I think fights are healthy because you never hide or avoid things or leave things left undiscussed. It is like denying the problem is there and it will catch up. I think if Hermione ever yelled at Harry and those two got into it, I think it would do a lot more for their relationship. Like I said, R/H arguments have passion and affection behind them.

Ok, ew!! I'm sorry. But I was raised right and if you knew me, you would know I am the last person to do anything of the sort before marriage...but I meant that I have to know and like the guy before I can believe that his flattery is genuine or true.

There is none. But the fact is, Luna and her father are the only Lovegoods we've heard of. We're making a connection.
Uh... yes he is. Harry was the one who wanted to go after the troll; Hermione was in danger because Ron didn't like her. Nice avvie, where'd you get it? That's true. But it was Harry's idea to do something. Not really. She chose to be Ron's friend for the sake of peace. She knew Ron didn't like her, but at the same time owed him one for rescuing her. She's always been Harry's friend, first and foremost - Ron, too, but she doesn't pay as much attention to Ron. Yes, but it doesn't mean she still is. He saw her as an annoying individual but didn't dwell on it. She was background noise to him. Ron is easily pestered. I'm well aware of that. It's what happened after they became friends that interests me. Pity they're on different sides, eh? Love and war?
no, but neither is JKR. And she didn't have four brothers to study. I know boys don't like to show anything other than masculinity. For God's sake, one of my brothers even thinks it's cissy to wash his face in the morning. The point is that Ron never made a move on Hermione. Why not? I still don't know. Maybe he was afraid Hermione didn't feel the same. If that was the case then I'm sorry but the HMS H/Hr has officially sailed. Hermione doesn't like him any more. Deal with it.
I know. But I'm trying to point out that Hermione is more honest with Harry than Ron. That goes without saying. I think with Harry she'd just try to be herself: nervous at the start, normal by the end. But we're talking about a whole new behavioural spectrum so it's hard to judge.
I can't picture her on a date with Ron.

Kloves mucked up her character in PoA. She was too heroic, too take-charge. But maybe he was just trying to build her up for the Harry-Ron fallout in GoF, and put ideas in our heads for when the OotP movie comes out. I don't know.
Harry and Hermione had more 'moments', that's true. But it's establishing their positions as friends. We've already discussed this.

Of course it was. That, and Ron's self-righteous sincerity. Harry has never been uncomfortable in crowds and I find it highly significant that the first thing Ron says is basically, 'Get off him, Hermione'.

His mind's on autopilot. He's not even listening.
Don't give me that. You can't prove it: Hermione doesn't like Ron in OotP and your total lack of evidence only proves my point.
So Harry and Hermione fighting is preferable to them talking things out? The fact is that they don't leave things undiscussed. Hermione doesn't want to fight with Harry and he feels guilty when he yells at her. This is unhealthy? Spoken like a true R/Hr shipper.
It is like denying the problem is there and it will catch up. I think if Hermione ever yelled at Harry and those two got into it, I think it would do a lot more for their relationship. Like I said, R/H arguments have passion and affection behind them.
I stand by my let's not go there.

Harry isn't going to hook up with Ron I'm sure we can all agree with that...*sighs* [which isn't to knock the ship it just isn't going to happen, the world would have a cow, and the people chanting that it's witchcraft...well like they need an excuse right?]. That said how is Ginny a sub-Ron, she can't be his best friend, that's cool with me, I want them to get together. I've always thought of them fighting side by side [in the war mind you, she's got his back and vice versa]...*dreams of H/G fighting heroically*...anyways last time I said it so badly they were talking about GI Jane Barbie Ginny. I don't think she's like Super-Hermione in the movies [I don't know how you feel about that but I think they've skewed the character a tad, she's bookish for heaven's...]likewise I don't think Ginny's going to become an Auror in the next book. As for being close to Harry, how? There's many different ways people can be close to you, the creepy-smelly-guy-in-the-subway kind of close, the best-friend-emotionally kind of close, the closest-thing-to-a-true-family/parent kind of close. Ad nauseum, you get the idea, me I'm too close to the monitor...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh.

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The very name of Ronald means 'king's advisor'. Ron's going to show a whole new side of himself in Book 6 and I can't wait. Hermione's the sensible one, Ron's the passionate one. He's going to have a demon on both shoulders, egging him on in different directions.

But you'd still agree Hermione is like his second in command, he can go to Ron for emotional support [pat in the back, hanging out with the guys, talking about the wife kind of thing], where she would be his [and is really] his what should I do girl, the voice of reason.

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Triwizard's every four years. I think Book 6 will be more about protecting Harry from his own wrath as well as Voldemort. About Easter Book 7 is where he goes to war, cos that's where Dumbledore dies.

A la Triwizard, as in he didn't put his name in the goblet, he didn't ask to be made Hogwarts champion, he didn't ask to have to face three challenges...etc. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I meant to say whether he goes looking for trouble or it comes looking for him. That said you're probably right, I think Harry's just about had enough from Voldy, time for some payback...but after what happened last time he might be more cautious...[yeah right, he's a teenager, he's going to be in the front lines if anywhere] and Dumbledore isn't going to die, that would be so Obi Wan Kenobi Star Wars, at best he'll be knocked out of commission but he is not going to die.

I'm bleeding, oh god...no wait it's just ketchup, was eating a sandwich earlier.

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Imagine Harry got with Cho at the end of Book 7? And all this was in vain? I'd scream. You'd probably hear it and I'm in Ireland.

Don't even joke about it. I'd rather get stabbed...no wait you already did that. No, I think Cho is going to die, it's going to be one of those awkward I used to know that person kind of things. It's like when someone you know dies, not someone close to you but like when you hear about an old acquaintance like a childhood friend, she belongs to a happier past remember one he doesn't and can never go back too pre you know who's death. In this way you symbollically put an end to that, once and for all. Look at me wax poetic.

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I would! I'd be like, how does Hermione know about the state of his underwear? *removes mind from gutter*

Of course you would, you ship H/Hr. I'm just saying that would be such a mom thing to do, doesn't anyone watch Seinfeld?

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I think it started as fear: for a long time Harry vastly underestimated the danger he was in. Hermione kept an eye on him: look at the Firebolt incident. But I think that the closer she looked, the more her feelings changed...

Yeah, but she was looking at Ron just then, and those were feelings of love *eyes twinkling*. Sorry I couldn't resist. I don't see where those feelings have changed tell me again. Specifically where Hermione [I mean if there is such a moment] where you see Hermione going Harry you're my lobster...er...I mean Harry you're the one, or you could be the one, or even Harry you're a guy, and maybe cute, cuter than Krum anyway [sorry I couldn't resist that one either ].

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Oh, there's plenty of R/Hr. Just not from Hermione's side.

Hmm...well, let me give it a shot see if I can't find something.

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You know, I actually did that once? Without the field, obviously - farmers round here would probably shoot you. I read OotP one time taking notes for every ship moment. But notebook ended up going in the wash with my blazer. Smart, eh?

Me I do it every night...and where I live the fields really do look that barren...God the desert sucks, as for the neighbors shooting boy do I know the feeling. I've got tons of notebooks with my luck it'll be lost in all the piles of notes I have for school, and my own fiction.

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Yep. And as for 'athletic', he just likes talking about Quidditch. Hermione has never missed one of his games, even when they aren't speaking. The only time she didn't arrive in time was when she was Petrified which is a pretty good excuse.

Two words...well actually four...no wait...aw poo...

Wonky Feints. *the crowd roars, Ottery takes a bow* Seriously, she's there [which is cool just goes to show you what a cool friend she is] but she's never much cared for the sport and that's not something they could talk about...with either Harry or Ron. As for the petrified thing...if Professor Binns can make it to his class post death...[aw c'mon you know you saw that one coming].

She didn't spend all summer with Harry if I remember...and he doesn't like her that way anyways. *again the crowd rises in their seats screaming* sorry I can't stop thinking about sports for some reason, oh yeah that Quidditch reference before.

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This has actuallybeen brought up before; a previous debater compared us to Ron and Hermione. I said fine, Hermione doesn't like Ron.
I never understood this whole "they argue so they're in love" thing. I argue with a lot of people, it just means we disagree. It's not chemistry, it's annoyance.

Sarcasm...don't make me have to italicize things now. And what does Mickey Mouse have to do with anything? Anyways, not all romances are people bickering...well not outside of a Hollywood movie, but it's well known, I've seen it first hand, it's sickening at it's worst really, and downright cute at it's best when two people like each other but just can't bring to admit it to each other. I've seen it happen, which is to say nothing of the people who have love staring them in the face and just don't know if they should take the plunge, "If you feel something other than abject terror give the person a shot..."

That said, take your pepper spray just the same and I'm out! C-ya.

Just like me with this ship. I'm outta control... I love R/Hr.

Sorry couldn't resist.

Well actually I am and you're absolutely correct...oh sorry *in my best Arnold Schwarzenager voice* Vell actully I am. [Don't I sound like Krum, hehe], And yu aaah right Shannon. But that's society for you...can't very well spit in it's eye now can ya.
Well there's a Revolutionary Idea.


I...bad choice of words...maybe Hermione isn't going to be his second in command...and Harry can have many advisors, whether he listens to them or not well that's another matter.

Well that would play to his heroic strenghts no? I mean Hermione herself accuses him of having a superhero complex in Ootp. He should have listened...*sighs regretfully*


Hold the phone...no really I got to make a call. Just kidding. Ron and Hermione argue endlessly, passionately, and they're always together...if you look throughout the books there's a lot of instances where Harry is alone, or with someone else particularly in Ootp. Funny, I worried through Ootp that Harry was going to be separated from R/Hr, you think he's fallen into Hermione's arms...multiple readings no? That's why I don't want Harry to die, and I want him to be with Ginny...because he's been through so much stuff...and then to just die young, and never know love? Sorry, I'm like a water fountain sometimes.


Which some might argue *hemhem* is a sign that Hermione isn't being honest with Ron, about things...like her feelings, about him.

Five books into the series? Sorry, if I keep this up what's Shannon going to have to reply too.
Okay, I'm really out of here now. But don't forget the pepper spray.

Don't you realise that that's exactly what happened with H/Hr in the flight from the Hall of Prophecy? But what I meant was, if Hermione's behind the logic and Ron's got the drive, what's Ginny's role?

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I don't know how you feel about that but I think they've skewed the character a tad, she's bookish for heaven's...

I'm pretty peeved at that, too. Regardless of how I ship, I don't think they should change what's in the books. That's why I hate Peter Jackson so much.

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likewise I don't think Ginny's going to become an Auror in the next book. As for being close to Harry, how? There's many different ways people can be close to you, the creepy-smelly-guy-in-the-subway kind of close, the best-friend-emotionally kind of close, the closest-thing-to-a-true-family/parent kind of close.

I mean mentally and emotionally close. Harry and Hermione think on the same level, he opens up to her in ways he'd never open up to Ron. I know what you're going to say - "cos Hermione's a girl" - but it's not like that. Ron doesn't hold a lot back with Harry.

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But you'd still agree Hermione is like his second in command, he can go to Ron for emotional support [pat in the back, hanging out with the guys, talking about the wife kind of thing], where she would be his [and is really] his what should I do girl, the voice of reason.

Yup. The wife being Hermione.

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That said you're probably right, I think Harry's just about had enough from Voldy, time for some payback...but after what happened last time he might be more cautious...

Maybe, but he's still gonna want payback.

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Dumbledore isn't going to die, that would be so Obi Wan Kenobi Star Wars, at best he'll be knocked out of commission but he is not going to die.

With respect to the woman, JKR has ripped off more established scifi/fantasy series than I can count on my fingers. For example:

Ponder Stibbons, a put-upon young wizard at Unseen University in the Discworld series. First appeared/drawn in 1993.

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Don't even joke about it. I'd rather get stabbed...no wait you already did that.

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No, I think Cho is going to die, it's going to be one of those awkward I used to know that person kind of things. It's like when someone you know dies, not someone close to you but like when you hear about an old acquaintance like a childhood friend, she belongs to a happier past remember one he doesn't and can never go back too pre you know who's death. In this way you symbollically put an end to that, once and for all. Look at me wax poetic.

That's a popular theory - one I agree with.

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Of course you would, you ship H/Hr. I'm just saying that would be such a mom thing to do, doesn't anyone watch Seinfeld?

Nope.

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I've got tons of notebooks with my luck it'll be lost in all the piles of notes I have for school, and my own fiction.

My fiction is closely guarded by four trolls and a zipper. But I did lose four years of Chemistry notes last month. I'm still copying up.

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Wonky Feints. *the crowd roars, Ottery takes a bow* Seriously, she's there [which is cool just goes to show you what a cool friend she is] but she's never much cared for the sport and that's not something they could talk about...with either Harry or Ron.

I stand by my observation. Hehe, notice how the only match Hermione has ever missed in the entire series was the one where Harry wasn't playing?

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She didn't spend all summer with Harry if I remember...and he doesn't like her that way anyways. *again the crowd rises in their seats screaming* sorry I can't stop thinking about sports for some reason, oh yeah that Quidditch reference before.

Don't worry, we're all mad here. I've been swaying and mouthing along to Delta Goodrem, my mum stuck her head in a minute ago, frowned a little and went back out. They all think I'm insane...

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And what does Mickey Mouse have to do with anything?

He's sticking his tongue out and they've discontinued the emoticon.

Exactly. Harry rescues the damsel in distress - even though Ron played a big part, ultimately it was all Harry's idea and Harry did most of the work.

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Ron and Hermione argue endlessly, passionately, and they're always together... if you look throughout the books there's a lot of instances where Harry is alone, or with someone else particularly in Ootp.

The fact that Harry's not there doesn't mean they're necessarily together. And they don't argue passionately, they bicker like siblings.

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Which some might argue *hemhem* is a sign that Hermione isn't being honest with Ron, about things...like her feelings, about him.

But there's nothing to show that she likes him.

~Laura

Girlfriend? Besides which she can fight side by side with Harry too. What she's not is nagging, she's right [ironically enough] the way Hermione always is [she always really is, look at the books, she's never wrong] but it doesn't nag him the same way. He isn't irked because she makes him see he's being a prat. Oh the stirrings of love.

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The fact that Harry's not there doesn't mean they're necessarily together. And they don't argue passionately, they bicker like siblings.

Actually no, they argue passionately. You've admitted that Ron liked Hermione, and hinted that maybe she liked him back in GoF [yes I know he lost his chance...and so on, I don't want to put words in your mouth] so you have to admit there was passion there. And while they were in Grimmauld place, well, Harry found them together.

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But there's nothing to show that she likes him.

In book 5 or anywhere? Because Hermione asking Ron to notice she's a girl isn't part of her vanity. As the fact that she doesn't bother looking gorgeous all the time clearly points out, oh and by her own admission.

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Exactly. Harry rescues the damsel in distress - even though Ron played a big part, ultimately it was all Harry's idea and Harry did most of the work.

True, but Ron didn't like Hermione in PS. Harry didn't like Hermione in PS, and I wouldn't argue Hermione didn't like Harry or Ron. Seriously at eleven they were too busy being wowed with Magic to be wowed by love. What'smore I'd argue Hermione isn't in love with Ron because he's heroic...it's everything else. His loyalty, his steadfastness, his humor [even if she doesn't like it]. If that were the basis of H/Hr that would be pretty shallow you'd have to admit. Hermione would be like all those other girls that like Krum because he's a good Quidditch player. She'd love Harry because he's the hero.

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I'm pretty peeved at that, too. Regardless of how I ship, I don't think they should change what's in the books. That's why I hate Peter Jackson so much.

Me three. And "Dude, I hate Peter Jackson too." Well actually I hate that people want to make HP a rip off of Lotr's, hello all if not all fantasy fiction is a rip off of Lotr's. What I loved about HP is that it is not, it's actually inventive and new, different. A magical school, trains, quidditch where's that in Lotr's. I liked the movies okay, but the books were so much better. Can't wait for CoN next Christmas though.

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I mean mentally and emotionally close. Harry and Hermione think on the same level, he opens up to her in ways he'd never open up to Ron. I know what you're going to say - "cos Hermione's a girl" - but it's not like that. Ron doesn't hold a lot back with Harry.

Valid. Oh, and how'd you know I was going to say that? But it's true, Hermione is a girl, and you're right Harry opens up to her in ways he doesn't with Ron and vice versa...which I would argue is an argument for why Harry needs them both, as friends, and why he's friends with both, not why he loves Hermione.

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Yup. The wife being Hermione.

To Ron's Husband of course. What no little devil smilie?

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Maybe, but he's still gonna want payback.

And who can blame him. Go Harry. Just don't go getting yourself killed.



Ripped off, try anyone who writes fantasy, and ripped off is Lotr's. I don't read fantasy because they're mostly elves, humans, and dwarves on dumb quests to do stupid things before they overthrow some dark overlord. Okay that doesn't sound too good for JK, but I don't think she purposefully went out and committed plagerism. I can see similarities, but that's a part of literature actually, referrencing earlier works. Case in point, she didn't invent centaurs, gryphons, witches riding on brooms. Does that mean she can't use them? Heck she didn't even invent the train? But where would HP be without The Hogwarts Express? Harry would be sitting pretty with the Dursley's and no one would be shipping anything.

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That's a popular theory - one I agree with.

I think anyone who doesn't ship H/C, wants Cho dead. It's kind of morbid, but I think, refer to my waxing poetic, that it would be symbolic, not just to get her out of the way. Sorry Cho, you gotta go. See, I even rhyme sometimes.

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Nope.

Me neither actually, Everwood's my show, and ER. They make me cry.

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I stand by my observation. Hehe, notice how the only match Hermione has ever missed in the entire series was the one where Harry wasn't playing?

Which was necessary to the plot. Someone more foolish than I, might argue "Hermione couldn't just be rude and not go," but the honest truth is, if Hermione hadn't of gone then how could she have led Umbridge out to the forest. Harry it never would have occurred too because he had other pressing matters on his mind. And as for him just telling Hermione about, some friend no? It is sad she missed Ron's match, I can see him on everyone's shoulder's "Weasley is our King," his moment of triumph some might say. But I say, "Not his most triumphant moment" when it will matter that Hermione is there, and I'm sure it will matter to you too, because then we'll see who's arm she's at.

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He's sticking his tongue out and they've discontinued the emoticon.

I know I was being goofy...goofy get it Disney, goofy...aw I'll just shut up now.

^^ harry and hermoine have a stronger bond than ron and harry? hah! i love this. i live for things like this. i really do!
yeah i can see that. you know, because in ootp, harry felt a strange feeling of loss at not being with hermoine for the ride to hogwarts....oh wait....ive seem to have made a mistake here.
harry opens up to hermoine about only two things- girls and at grimmauld place.
but if ppl can argue that in the harry/luna ship, harry didn't so much open up to her as let her speak to him(i agree) then i will say that hermoine forced him to speak. and i was glad for that. i was like finally! someone whose going to get him out of his 'oh but im a hero so i shouldn't have any loved ones' jig. yes thats good. but i dont see them any closer than they were in any of the other books.
i actually thought them to be closer in poa(when harry tried to look out for hermoine despite the fight b/w her and ron) and in gof when hermoine was one of the few ppl who believed that harry wasn't an attention seeking prat. and it does me glad. but lets not get carried away eh?
he keeps things from her, he misses ron anytime he's not there so please don't give me the arguement that 'harry and hermoine grew closer in ootp and ron is a prat(we[h/hr shippers] know its not related but just that we'd put that in there anyway)' thing.
oh and laura- the previous remark isn't aimed at you. its in general.
im just heartily against any ship(of the trio like h/hr; r/hr; h/r) that decides in order for the two characters to get together, they have to suddenly be better than the other left out member of the trio and suddenly not need them anymore and what not.
that, to me, just sounds like wishful thinking
apologies in advance to hoards of shippers i have offended/annoyed with this post.

Sick girl this one...just kidding loony lupin [still don't think I haven't noticed you never capitalize]...I live for candy, cuteness, and H/G, R/Hr.

Sarcasm...it's everywhere you want to be.

What no quidditch? Wonky faints, wonky faints...

Me neither really, I think by now their relationships are established, it's just a matter of what's under the surface popping out. Like R/Hr.

Awww, help I'm being carried away by H/Hr shippers. They're going to torch me.

Well she does nag...I'd keep things from her too, specifically anything having to do with house elves...I hated Spew.

Ditto. I don't think any romance between any couple, H/Hr or R/Hr would break up the trio, no matter how you ship you've got to realize that someone doesn't love someone else. JKR wouldn't build all this friendship up just to crush it...anymore than turning the trio into a sextet would water down the main trio's friendship. Maybe that's why people don't want H/G, they see it as too intrusive, almost as if she's going to pop in and wreck everything. Oh look suddenly were four, or worse, down to two...where'd Harry and Ginny go?

No wishful thinking's more like this...I wish for H/Hr, and then R/Hr happens.

Don't apologize girl, that's what we're here for to offend and annoy with our posts...er no wait...yes. Offend and annoy.

On one occasion. And if Ginny's just there as the token female, she's not being very useful is she? Hermione advises, Ron motivates, Ginny snogs. Who's most important? He find it far easier to speak to Ron and Hermione.

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Actually no, they argue passionately. You've admitted that Ron liked Hermione, and hinted that maybe she liked him back in GoF [yes I know he lost his chance...and so on, I don't want to put words in your mouth] so you have to admit there was passion there.

Key word there: was. Now they just bicker.

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And while they were in Grimmauld place, well, Harry found them together.

And I suppose he was interrupting something? Well it must've been a one-off then cos Hermione shows no interest in Ron in OotP.

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In book 5 or anywhere? Because Hermione asking Ron to notice she's a girl isn't part of her vanity. As the fact that she doesn't bother looking gorgeous all the time clearly points out, oh and by her own admission.

Eh, what? In OotP she doesn't.

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True, but Ron didn't like Hermione in PS. Harry didn't like Hermione in PS, and I wouldn't argue Hermione didn't like Harry or Ron. Seriously at eleven they were too busy being wowed with Magic to be wowed by love.

I agree.

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What'smore I'd argue Hermione isn't in love with Ron because he's heroic...it's everything else. His loyalty, his steadfastness, his humor [even if she doesn't like it]. If that were the basis of H/Hr that would be pretty shallow you'd have to admit. Hermione would be like all those other girls that like Krum because he's a good Quidditch player. She'd love Harry because he's the hero.

Hermione's done the shallow thing and regretted it. She knows Harry, not the Boy-Who-Lived.

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Me three. And "Dude, I hate Peter Jackson too." Well actually I hate that people want to make HP a rip off of Lotr's, hello all if not all fantasy fiction is a rip off of Lotr's.

Ah but you see that's where it all goes runny. Every bit of fantasy has something in common with LotR without ripping it off. It's when major plot points are ripped off that gets me.
Like, look at Discworld. Some of the most original fantasy ever written - but the interesting thing is, a lot of the books are either putting a spin on elements of modern life and culture, or doing a fantasy rehash of established stories like Les Miserables or Macbeth. And yet it stays original because Pratchett takes a story and makes it his own.
Then on the flipside you have the likes of Eragon - a good book once the format settles down, but pretty much a bunch of LotR bits strung together and rechristened with more Ks and Xs.

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What I loved about HP is that it is not, it's actually inventive and new, different. A magical school, trains, quidditch where's that in Lotr's. I liked the movies okay, but the books were so much better. Can't wait for CoN next Christmas though.

What's that? A magical school - that's been done about a million times before HP. Earthsea, The Worst Witch and Unseen University are among the better-known ones but Hogwarts was not the first academy of magic in modern fantasy. Trains and Quidditch - they're all JKR's own. And I agree. Books always beat the films, hands-down.

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Valid. Oh, and how'd you know I was going to say that? But it's true, Hermione is a girl, and you're right Harry opens up to her in ways he doesn't with Ron and vice versa...which I would argue is an argument for why Harry needs them both, as friends, and why he's friends with both, not why he loves Hermione.

IMHO that means that while Ron is his buddy, Hermione's more than that.

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Ripped off, try anyone who writes fantasy, and ripped off is Lotr's. I don't read fantasy because they're mostly elves, humans, and dwarves on dumb quests to do stupid things before they overthrow some dark overlord.

Oi! Don't disrespect Tolkien. He's the master no questions asked.

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Okay that doesn't sound too good for JK, but I don't think she purposefully went out and committed plagerism. I can see similarities, but that's a part of literature actually, referrencing earlier works. Case in point, she didn't invent centaurs, gryphons, witches riding on brooms. Does that mean she can't use them?

It's thinks like "Wormtail" and the Dementors that annoy me. Apparently the producers had a lot of trouble avoiding Nazgul lookalikes for PoA and no wonder.

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Me neither actually, Everwood's my show, and ER. They make me cry.

CSI and the OC for me.

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If Hermione hadn't of gone then how could she have led Umbridge out to the forest. Harry it never would have occurred too because he had other pressing matters on his mind.

Yes, but she and Harry never get to see Ron shine. An important metaphor IMHO.

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But I say, "Not his most triumphant moment" when it will matter that Hermione is there, and I'm sure it will matter to you too, because then we'll see who's arm she's at.

Yes, we certainly will. While Ron was finally making a name for himself, Harry and Hermione were clinging to each other in the forest.

Ooooh, I like CSI (not the Miami or the NY one. The original one). I liked X-Files, but now I've been taken over by all the comedies on UKTV. 'Allo 'Allo. Its fantastically funny.

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Yes, but she and Harry never get to see Ron shine. An important metaphor IMHO. Yes, we certainly will. While Ron was finally making a name for himself, Harry and Hermione were clinging to each other in the forest.

[/QUOTE]Yes, she doesn't see him shine in Quidditch, a relatively 'shallow' achievement when compared to preparing to sacrificing your life for your mates, circa, PS and POA. She was there then wasn't she?
She doesn't see him shine because she doesn't need to see him like that to be his best mate and adore him.
I would be very disgruntled if a bloke whose been my best mate for ages formed his opinion of me and wants me because he's seen me shine. Its fine in normal circumstances. But these kids are best mates, hopefully after 5 years, they're past the superficiality. They've seen each other belch slugs and grow a tail, they're over it now.
Grrrr. I sound like a zealot now. Oh well...
I wouldn't mind H/Hr, actually. They're both nice people and if they can be happy together, that's ace. Ditto with R/Hr, H/G,H/L, whoever. Just give me proof that doesn't involve decrease in importance of another character, unrealistically.
Thankfully, most H/Hr folks are over the whole 'Ron will betray Harry and turn evil and Hermoine will console him and they'll fall in love' jaunt. So we're getting there, aren't we?(yay)
Just out of joblessness and curiousity- What will you guys(that includes, Ottery and all other shippers) do if your 'ship' doesn't eventuate?
p.s- see, Ottery? I can use capitals and do the whole grammar thing. Its very exhausting, mind.

Tokens, you use to pay for the subway. Not to make her out to be Xena Warrior Princess [dude I loved that show!] But as I've said, she would fight by his side. We're shipping, and girlfriends aren't all token [though I can see why you'd say that about Ginny you ship H/Hr.] I'm not arguing their level of importance but to me my girlfriend would be more important than my closest advisor. There's a song about this...When a man loves a woman if I remember correctly the line goes "...he'll sleep out in the rain if that's the way she says it ought to be..." I'm probably quoting it wrong but you get the idea I'm sure.

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Key word there: was. Now they just bicker.

Says you, I still see the passion there. I can't specifically point out one instance where JK wrote Ron said heatedly, or Hermione replied passionately. I mean she [Hermione] gets a rise out of him [Ron] everytime, and vice versa. With Harry it's don't yell at me, and that's because he's turned into an angry teenager. She hasn't cooled to Ron, anymore than she's warmed up to Harry. Romantically speaking of course.

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And I suppose he was interrupting something? Well it must've been a one-off then cos Hermione shows no interest in Ron in OotP.

What's a one-off? And we don't know what they were saying we can only speculate, and maybe that would explain why Hermione is smothering Harry with worry and Ron isn't at all feeling threatened, [you've argued that Ron still likes Hermione, it's she that doesn't like him back]. And don't give me that he's so happy she's happy because that's about as there [in the books] as Willy Wonka.

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Eh, what? In OotP she doesn't.

So say you, let me look at the book again...[I'm reading Dostoevsky for school, give me a break...]

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Hermione's done the shallow thing and regretted it. She knows Harry, not the Boy-Who-Lived.

I'm assuming you mean with Krum, sorry H/Kers. H/Kers do you all even exist? And yes it was shallow, well actually no, I think Hermione went with Krum because she was taken aback that he liked her, [ *in my best vamp voice* flattery will get you everywhere], or maybe she actually [she was young, we all make mistakes] *gasps audibly* found him interesting. Because it wasn't the whole Quidditch thing. Wonky faints.

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IMHO that means that while Ron is his buddy, Hermione's more than that.

In my infinately more humble, so humble I shouldn't even bother you with it opinion, or ImimhshIsebywio for short no Ron is closer to Harry. Again because the only one who could be closer to Harry than Ron would have to be his girlfriend or possible love interest which as you well know I ship H/G. No Ginny isn't there yet, but I don't think Hermione is there either. Closer than Ginny now, wouldn't even argue it because we both know it's true. But when Ginny and Harry do become romantically entangled that's a whole nother story.


*picks up megaphone, addresses all randoms*


Please note I said romantically not something else meaning romantically kiss, kiss, holding hands, long walks around the lake only. Pre-ratings, Hollywood censors innocent romance.

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Oi! Don't disrespect Tolkien. He's the master no questions asked.

None meant. I mean he did it first, everyone else merely followed, added nothing, and most still get away with those hackneyed plots. I'm not knocking Pratchett either since I haven't read his stuff but you can hardly accuse JKR of sending Harry and the others on a quest to find [insert magical item here] to save [stupid kingdom name here] from the clutches of the evil [idiotic dark lord here]. The quest idea wasn't original to him either, he taught Medieval literature...The Holy Grail anyone? I love Tolkien, I hate what has become of fantasy...fairy tales are more interesting...no really read Grimm's unedited. Fantasy today is all quests and dragons...someone save me. If you write any fantasy, don't use elves.

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It's thinks like "Wormtail" and the Dementors that annoy me. Apparently the producers had a lot of trouble avoiding Nazgul lookalikes for PoA and no wonder.

Okay, I've never heard of wormtail outside of HP, wormtongue yes, wormtail no. Nazgul...skeletons in black hoods...hmm...Grim Reaper's anyone? The original idea doesn't exist, God took that when he created the world...everything else has just been variations on a theme.

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Yes, but she and Harry never get to see Ron shine. An important metaphor IMHO.

ImimhshIsebywio I can grant you that only if Ron were never to shine again. Or if that were the most important moment of his life. Which I would argue it is not. Besides Hermione's not shallow, at least not anymore, I would argue she never was, just taken aback by an older boy's flattery. Evil Krum.

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Yes, we certainly will. While Ron was finally making a name for himself, Harry and Hermione were clinging to each other in the forest.

ImimhshIsebywio, the metaphor there could be interpreted as without Hermione and Harry, would still shine, it's his moment, there presence there would overshadow it, Hermione is an intellect, and whatsmore I would argue she couldn't totally appreciate it [Wonky faints], anymore than I can American Football [homerun!, oops sorry wrong sport]


! On a sidebar, see originality is non existent, American Football was Rugby, Baseball was Crickett!


and Harry's the youngest seeker in a century. Even if he wasn't in the game. As for clinging...Hermione to Harry maybe, but Hagrid's kind of busy with his brother, and Fang, hadn't he run off? It's a symbollic moment because its not an important moment, as evidenced by the absence of his friends. JKR could have written the whole match and left us in the dark about Harry and Hermione in the forest...that would have given H/Hr's more to work with no? But the game is not as important as all that. And the only reason Ron didn't play miserably is because Fred and George weren't there. It's significant in that he's finally coming into his own out of the shadow of his brothers. If it's significant at all. Which is another argument for why Ron isn't going to die, but that's another thread. Oh, and what Loony Lupin said... *snaps fingers* wish I'd thought of that.



This part. It's why I love Ron, that and I don't like heroes as much as sidekicks, don't know why though, probably because they do all the work and the hero gets all the glory...nah Harry's not like that...er well at least not with Ron, Hermione though?

and the tombstone will read "Here lies Ottery St. Catchpole, who shipped R/Hr, and H/G but saw it all crumble when Draco got the girl...oh, and Ginny hooked up with Neville, and Harry with Luna, and Ron did really turn evil and hooked up with Pansy, and Crabbe and Goyle well those two goons couldn't get a gorilla for a girlfriend so... Rest in eternal despair Ottery [as invariably I would]." But I'm sure of R/Hr, and H/G, if not I guess I'll miss me. Seriously though if I can't have my ships I'd rather a Gone with the Wind ending...

Ginny sitting on the steps to of Tara, her Southern Plantation House..."Oh, Harry...I'll think of a way to get you back...tomorrow...after all tomorrow is another day..." Cue Max Steiner's soundtrack. That way everyone can have their ship...it'd be all up to our imaginations.

You don't have to on my account...it's like me writing all in black. But it's nice to know you can.

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and the tombstone will read "Here lies Ottery St. Catchpole, who shipped R/Hr, and H/G but saw it all crumble when Draco got the girl...oh, and Ginny hooked up with Neville, and Harry with Luna, and Ron did really turn evil and hooked up with Pansy,

Ginny with Neville is ok. Harry with Luna is good too. Draco got the girl? I'm assuming you mean Hermoine? Oh God! Yuck! Blech! Gag!
And Ron turned stupid more like, to hook up with Pansy. Gaaaah!

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But I'm sure of R/Hr, and H/G, if not I guess I'll miss me. Seriously though if I can't have my ships I'd rather a Gone with the Wind ending...

awww. I'll miss you. And you're wild use of colour!
And really? All those endless debates that will rage, without no hope of ever being resolved? Actually I think it is a swell idea but for the health of a lot of my mates, who are avid shippers, I'd rather she put a P.S in her books and said, 'Oh btw, these people hooked up.... 4eva and eva(sorry couldn't resist it) and give us a list.

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You don't have to on my account...it's like me writing all in black. But it's nice to know you can.

lol. Cheers. I'll try. But if I'm in a hurry, I'll probably just type it the old way and you can gnash your teeth....

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So say you, let me look at the book again...[I'm reading Dostoevsky for school, give me a break...]

You poor dear. Go have a lie down. I'm reading one too, actually. Crime and Punishment. But its simply because I like his first name.

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Not to make her out to be Xena Warrior Princess [dude I loved that show!]

You and nearly every other guy I know! What is it about that show?

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On a sidebar, see originality is non existent, American Football was Rugby, Baseball was Crickett!

Mate, its cricket with a single 't'....yeah, just like the bug. Its a splendid splendid game. And America actually has a cricket team, pretty bad of course and consisting mainly of Indians and folks from the Carribean but I'm sure it'll get ther eventually.

Anyways, just wanted to say I agree with Ottery over the originality issue(although I'm not sure why we're talking about that)- if you work at it hard way, you can condense anything and it will all resemble each other. Universal Subconscience I believe Jung called it. Its when people's idea, no matter how different they are, eventually comes from the same place and is intending to convey the same things, because, when it boils down to it, we're all pretty much wanting the same things. I don't read Jk's works or LOTR because its startlingly original. I read it because its intriguing and well-written.
With regards to romance, there are only a certain types of characters and the attraction b/w each of them has been done to death because a lot of books have been written.

Wow. Haven't posted in forever! I have dress rehearsal tonight, and my bball team is going to the finals! (I can't play cause of the knee)...but I don't have school, so I have a little time before I have to go. So, first, I will say hello to you all and hope you are healthy and happy and safe.

Laura, I got some quotes from the book like you wanted. I'll start with those and then I'll start replying to some posts...(there are more quotes from the book, I just haven't had time to look at them yet...)

p.184 OotP American version
Hmm...and he's never traveled on the HE without Hermione, but he didn't say. Yes, in CoS, they tooko the car and they were together, but that is not what it says, it says HE. And even Hermione was there in PS/SS. Hmmm... could it mean that I was right and Ron DOES come before Hermione in Harry's life?

p. 229 OotP American version
Ok, for those of you who are not aware of the word mollified, I will tell you what it means in the simple terms.

Mollified means to be soothed, or calmed.

Now, Ron is giving her a compliment that she is smarter than them and has all these nice, clever qualities. She pretends to be annoyed since they didn't remember what Dumbledore had said at the end of GoF, but when she was leaving, she looked soothed or calmed. Hermione got a compliment from Ron and she was soothed...

p.230 OotP American version
If Hermione is in love with Harry, then wouldn't she be happy that Ron was tactless and got rid of her? But here, she is mad that Ron ruined what could have been a good moment for Harry and Cho. Another Anti-H/Hr clue.

p.236 OotP American version
Now, Ron comes over and tells Harry that Hermione thinks he is taking his temper out on them after he yelled at them to stop arguing. Ron agrees. If you ask me, I think this is defensive on both of their parts because Harry's annoyance of the two had nothing to do with anger...it was just too much for him. And Hermione and Ron disagreed that they argue so much, so they both blame Harry's temper to cover up some feelings...

p165 OotP American version
I know you think that Hermione is sorry that Ron got Prefect, but she doesn't seem to think so anymore, does she? She defends him and tries to soothe him and cheer him up. Maybe more friendship than anything but it's nice of her all the same.

p.194 OotP American version
Yes, Hermione wants Harry to shut up about Harry...but is that all? I am not sure that it is. She knows that Ron is cast in Harry's shadow as well as his older brothers', so when Malfoy said that remark, as if it was a horrible thing to be second-best to Ron, Hermione got very irked about that as well. Hermione does think of Ron, you know, and I think this was one of those times where she was.

p.299 OotP American version: After Ron reads Percy's letter.
Now, Hermione is so authoritative about homework with them, especially Ron, so she is always enforcing her own rule. But after Percy's letter, after Percy put all that pressure and embarrassment into Ron, she gave him an odd look, then broke her rule suddenly. After that, she looked amused? Hmm..

p.303 OotP American version: After Sirius explains that Fudge is afraid Dumbledore is building an army against him.
Ron said this. She thinks she's loony...anti-R/L

p.309 OotP American version
I know, H/Hr shippers thinks this is Harry's hesitation to show Hermione a weakness, but that is a bunch of bull. I think he knows Hermione will tut or lecture or nag or something because later, he snaps, "I got a D. Are you happy?" or something like that. He's fine with Hermione, but you can tell that her trying to see his grade bothers him.

I'll look up more. I have to read it.

I preferred the Miami one at the start, but now it's all Vegas for me. I didn't even know there was an NY one.

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Yes, she doesn't see him shine in Quidditch, a relatively 'shallow' achievement when compared to preparing to sacrificing your life for your mates, circa, PS and POA. She was there then wasn't she?

I'm not saying seeing him perform well in Quidditch would radically change their opinions of Ron, I'm just saying that doing so would have set Ron on the same pedestal that Hermione and Harry are on. Harry's the hero, Hermione's the smart one - that would have made Ron the sporty one.

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Thankfully, most H/Hr folks are over the whole 'Ron will betray Harry and turn evil and Hermoine will console him and they'll fall in love' jaunt. So we're getting there, aren't we?(yay)

:o What a load of poo. As far as I knew, the H/G philosophy for a long time was: "everyone gets killed except Ginny. Ginny consoles Harry and they fall in love. Hahahah our ship is better than yours losers cos we have metaphorical evidence. "

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Just out of joblessness and curiousity- What will you guys(that includes, Ottery and all other shippers) do if your 'ship' doesn't eventuate?

Cry. Write fanfics. Dunno.

In GoF, I suppose? I'm not disputing that there was chemistry there. (Grrr i hate chemistry, gotta do a load of reactivity formulae tonight. dammit. maths too.)

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I'm assuming you mean with Krum, sorry H/Kers. H/Kers do you all even exist? And yes it was shallow, well actually no, I think Hermione went with Krum because she was taken aback that he liked her, [ *in my best vamp voice* flattery will get you everywhere], or maybe she actually [she was young, we all make mistakes] *gasps audibly* found him interesting. Because it wasn't the whole Quidditch thing. Wonky faints.

No, I was talking about Lockhart. I think she got involved with Krum 1. so she wouldn't have to go to the Yule Ball alone, 2. because she was flattered and 3. to make Ron jealous.
When it turned out that Krum would miss her more than anyone else, I think she realised that she was, metaphorically, in over her head.

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I love Tolkien, I hate what has become of fantasy...fairy tales are more interesting...no really read Grimm's unedited. Fantasy today is all quests and dragons...someone save me. If you write any fantasy, don't use elves.

Nah, you need Elves, or some race greater-than-humans-yet-lesser-than-gods. They were all the rage in pre-Christian northern Europe. The Vikings had elves, the Irish had the De Danann... I think it's an inbuilt thing.

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Okay, I've never heard of wormtail outside of HP, wormtongue yes, wormtail no.

Same basic character structure really. Just in LotR it was on a smaller scale.

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Nazgul...skeletons in black hoods...hmm...Grim Reaper's anyone? The original idea doesn't exist, God took that when he created the world...everything else has just been variations on a theme.

But the Grim Reaper wasn't a killer, just an usher.
Look, I gotta go. But I'll reply some more tomorrow when my mother isn't being totally mental.

~Laura