So now that the 7th book is out and most people have read it *and if you haven't then you should expect spoilers by now*, what do you think about Snape's true allegiance? His childhood fascination with Lily? If Snape really did love Lily, then what do you think caused him to become a death eater in the first place?

I'm curious and confused about this too. If Snape really loved Lily so much, why didn't he just give up the Dark Arts/being a Death Eater so he could be with her? And if he really loved Lily, why be so horrible to Harry, even though he looked so much like James? Why was there hatred on his face when he killed Dumbledore?

I don't think he was near as bad as some Death Eaters, like Bellatrix for instance. (She's a whole other topic!) But he was a Death Eater nevertheless. I think he's a Dumbledore's man. He did make mistakes, but I think he tried to make up for them by working with Dumbledore.

My main problem with him is him treating Harry so badly. Every time Snape wanted to do something bad to Harry, he should've looked into his eyes, Lily's eyes, and resist the temptation becuase Harry is Lily's child.

Ooh...Snape discussion! yay! *jumps in*

Snapes allegiance was one of the main puzzles in the series. I love how JK developed his character. My reasoning:

I think Snape was a "good guy with bad guy tendencies."

Okay, first off, his childhood doesn't seem to be the most wonderful...He seems to have been an outcast to everyone. Lily was different. He knew more about the wizarding world than she did, so he got to teach her about it: he was needed. She liked being around him, just because he was him, and even forgave him for being rude and mean to her sister. She was the ultimate "good girl." Why wouldn't he be drawn to that? Especially since she needed him to teach her about powers and such.

School days: He was extremely intelligent, but picked on mercilessly. After his not-so-great childhood, anyone could be expected to drift towards meaner tendencies when exposed to that environment. James was a mean teenager, he got his kicks out of humiliating Snape, a fact that Snape wasn't likely to forget. Then he began investigating the Dark Arts. I think he did this because that area is one he would be appreciated in...Lily tried to talk him out of it, but he felt welcomed there, like they understood how it felt to be outcasts and such. So he overlooked his love for her in order to feel appreciated. Lily then turned to the one person Snape hated more than any other...Creating not just anger, but jealousy and hate as well.

When Snape overheard the prophecy, he was in the full grasp of the Dark Arts, he was needed, appreciated, and felt his life was worth something more than just being a target for others derision. So then he finds out that Voldy is going after Lily. He can't believe that he has endangered the one person whom he had ever truly loved. He asks him to spare her life...which doesn't quite turn out the way he expected.

When Harry started attending Hogwarts, his fame had been spread (without his knowledge) throughout the entire wizarding world...So Snape has had to listen for 11 years about this wonderful "Potter" boy. Harry was a boy he couldn't love because of his father, but couldn't hate because of his mother. Snape was bound to always have contradictory feelings toward Harry (The child that should have been his!). I can't even begin to imagine what that felt like. Harry not only looked, but acted just like James...So Snape was forced to watch as another James was forming. (Okay, Harry didn't humiliate people in order to be looked up to, but I'm talking about rule breaking and disobedience to authority and such.) Naturally, that would make him angry every time he saw Harry.


Okay, just realized I'm writing a novel of my own in explanation. I'm going to hush now....

I believe that Snape got the dark mark most likely on the same day of Lily and James wedding, although at that time it was dangerous to do so they could of easily of set a date to do the paperwork and that would be the day Snape made his alliance to The Dark Lord.

It this quote there talking about his patronus and this also gives a hint that it was his patronus throughout knowing Lily/his life.

I think he got the mark while he was still at Hogwarts...I don't remember what caused me to believe this, something in one of the books. I'll look it up when I get home.

Well, as we know now, Snape's true allegiance was with the side of the Order. (Even though I was very confused about which side he was on after he killed Dumbledore, I'm sure we all felt that way.) I like the way JKR tied up Snape killing Dumbledore, how he begged him to do it, in fact, I believe some FFs here that came out before DH actually had a very similar explanation. So, that was nicely tied up.

I believe Snape had a real chance to win Lily, if only he had acted differently and stood up for her. I actually hated the way James treated him, it was terrible and I can see why he hated him. It must have been hard, seeing him every time he looked at Harry, but then he also had Lily's eyes, so it was impossible for him to hate him totally. In the end, I don't think Snape hated Harry at all.

You know, I was rereading through HBP (because of this discussion ) and something occured to me...

Harry had an instant hatred towards Snape. Then Snape, who had heard about this fabulous Potter boy (Who had survived after his beloved Lily died) for 11 years, got him in his class and immediately let him know that his respect had to be earned. Harry used that to further his hate....and that was the one constant through the books...at every turn, you could bet Harry would blame Snape.

Okay, so anyway, what I was trying to say was: How must it have felt for Snape to watch Harry guess correctly at so many things, but for all the incorrect reasons? EX: Snape was helping Draco to do something bad. TRUE: Snape had promised to help Draco, but only because DD had told him.
Does this make sense? I over analyze things a bit too much sometimes.

I think part of Snape was laughing at him ("Haha, Mr. Perfect Potter. You think you're so absolutely brilliant, but you're wrong!"), while part would be scowling and sulking because: a) Snape likes to scowl and sulk, and b) It probably would remind him of something James would've done.

Well. I can't be sure myself, but there is ALOT of evidence to both:

Evidence that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore
>After Harry attacked Snape in the Shrieking Shack, Snape makes excuses for him. He tells Cornelius Fudge that Harry was being controlled by Sirius via a Confundus Charm
>Dumbledore vouched for Snape's loyalty before the Wizengamot
>Snape (along with McGonagall & Dumbledore) was visible in Barty Crouch Jr.'s Foe-Glass
>Dumbledore never expressed any distrust of Snape
>Dumbledore says Snape was remorseful after he told Voldemort about the prophecy
>After Voldemort's re-birth, Dumbledore gave Snape some sort of grim assignment
>Over and over (until HBP) Harry's suspicions of Snape prove to be unfounded; what Snape says is often at odds with what he does.
>Timing suggests that Snape may have been the person that tipped Dumbledore off that Voldemort planned to kill the Potter's child
>According to Dumbledore, "Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured [after breaking the ring Horcrux], I might not have lived to tell the tale."
>Snape does not join the other Death Eaters after killing Dumbledore; instead, he rescues Draco and confronts Harry but does not kill him
>Snape is a superb Occlumens and could have hidden his loyalty to Dumbledore from Voldemort


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Evidence that Snape is loyal to Voldemort
>Snape murdered Dumbledore when Draco was unable to
>The "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" as he kills Dumbledore
>Death Eater; refers to Voldemort respectfully as "Dark Lord"
>Eavesdropped on Trelawney's prophecy and reported what he heard to Voldemort
>Tells Bellatrix that all his work for Dumbledore was done under Voldemort's orders
>Narcissa Malfoy believes that Snape is the "Dark Lord's favorite, his most trusted advisor"
>Abuses his power as a professor; cruel to students, especially Harry, Hermione and Neville
>Lifelong fascination with the Dark Arts
>Ambitious and resentful of people who are well-liked
>Snape is a superb Occlumens and could have hidden his loyalty to Voldemort from Dumbledore

As for my thoughts, I think Snape was very loyal to the Dark Lord, but came over to the lighter side. I also think that some loyalties are never lost, eh?

Snape, I'm sure, became a DeathEater because it was, perhaps, the quickest way to earn respect by doing what he was good at--Being

About that "Revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" part: I think that was because he didn't want to kill Dumbledore, he resented the fact that he was forced to do it...Revulsion at the deed and hatred of the fact that he knew it was necessary--But that's just me.

Yeah, I agree wit that, but still, one must wonder...

I feel the same about the revulsion and hatred thing. Dumbledore was someone Snape respected, even regarded as a friend, and he was disgusted and really didn't want to be the one to kill his friend, but he knew he had to do it (especially when Dumbledore had ordered him to). He had no choice, though the whole thing was repugnant to him, and I think that's what accounted for the expression of revulsion and hatred.

I'm sure that by Snape serving as a double agent, he was doing it on the order of Dumbledore. I do believe that Snape's true allegiance was with the Order, that he was always looking for a way to bring down Voldemort, especially after the death of his one true love, Lily.

i agree.He had a respect for Dumbledore as he was Snape's teacher in his childhood and a friend later.He was the one who showed snape the only way he could save lily's son and he must have felt reallybad that he had to kill himi think taht was the expression for revulsion and maybe he hated himeself that he had to do such an act.....

Hi all, going back to the first question I feel that Snape enjoyed the idea of loving Lily in his comfort zone. In his childhood he knew the answers and was able to show her the wizarding world, he was in control, but when they matured she was on her own 2 feet, coming into her own and he had to adjust to her and outside influences affecting their relationship. He was no longer in control of this and instead of fighting for it, he went the easier route and involved himself in the places and people where he could easily fit in, have a say. His love for her was still there just his mind, I believe became preoccupied with things that made him feel powerful that when he felt he was equal to James (his inner strength had grown) he realised that he and Lily had taken completely different paths and he had lost her. And now I see Ive written what Caseym did, oh well, I believe its what JKR was going for anyway. I guess thats the way we were intended to see him. Cant help feeling sorry for him still.

Good point! I still really believe that if Snape had really wanted Lily THAT much and had fought for her that he could have won her over James, or maybe she never would have been interested in James in the first place and then the whole story would be different because there never would be a Harry Potter to begin with. So, I suppose when you think of that that it was a really good thing that Lily and Snape didn't end up together, otherwise who knows what would have happened?

True point!

I think Snape's allegience always truly belonged to the Order, but the difficulties he had in his personal life, such as the battle against his Hogwarts bullies and the loss of his true love, got in the way and appealed to his darker side. For a time, I think he believed that the dark side brought power, and power would lead him into vanquishing his enemies. However, his continuing love for Lily won in the end, and despite his obvious tendancies for dark magic, he abstained and fought for the side of the light. Lily's love was what saved Harry from Voldemort in the beginning, until he began to fight back himself, and I think it was the love of Lily that kept Snape from fully succumbing to the dark side because he knew that that would be the ultimate betrayal of her.

Your point is well taken. In the end, I think it was Lily's love that really saved the day. I'm sure if it hadn't been for Lily that Snape would have succumbed fully to the dark side and been just as much a Death Eater as anyone else in there, not a double agent (or if he was a double agent, we know what side he would be on!) So ultimately, I think JKR's message has to do with the power of love overcoming everything, changing people and saving the world (or something to that effect.) Lily and Snape were both very pivotal characters to help us learn this all important lesson, in the end.

I have a question here....

I've been thinking about this, and I'm actually beginning to sway a bit in my belief of why Snape leaned towards the Dark Arts.... Could it be possible that Snape, who had had such a harsh childhood and such difficulties fitting in at Hogwarts...Could he have just been searching for knowledge?

Explanation: Snape was a genius...pure and simple...(at least in intelligence, not always in common sense). He created additions to potions to make them more excellent than they have ever been. He also created spells, many from the looks of it. He rivaled Dumbledore in knowledge, but maybe not in the shrewd thought processes that led Dumbledore to make many of the decisions he did. Anyway, I'm getting off point, the thing about the Death Eaters was that they were privy to a darker side of magic, one that wasn't normally taught at Hogwarts or in wizarding families...So maybe his love of knowledge and ability to experiment with changing things helped lead him that direction, as well as the power that came from being one of the DE?

It's possible, and does raise an interesting point. It is true that with individuals of extremely high intelligence (which Snape certainly had) they will oftentimes try to learn everything they can possibly learn and experience as much as possible, sometimes especially as it pertains to things that are considered dark or forbidden. That may well be true in Snape''s case. It wasn't enough for him to read about the dark side, he wanted to actually experience it for himself, like a need he just had to satisfy. Yes, that may well have been what pulled him to the dark side to begin with.

Any other thoughts from anyone on this?

I think the temptation may have been too much for him to overcome... He was so intelligent that he probably thought he could abstain from being seduced from the dark side and instead use the knowledge to enhance his own magic. I think his own arrogance may have lead him into dark magic, wanting to become better and better. It could be, again, that his love for Lily drew him into it, him wanting to impress her with his superior skills.

Impressing Lily with knowledge and superior skills had always been a big thing with him....especially when he was younger, I think maybe he thought that might have been the way to her heart...