Snape.....love....Lily.....

Is his love of Lily enough of a justification to say he is a 'good' guy...

or is he a nasty guy that just happens to have loved?

Absolutely not. Just because you are capable of love, does not automatically make you a good person. What you do decides that.

Snape was unnecessarily cruel to most of the students, not only Harry. He was petty. You do not use your age and position over children to belittle them or mentally abuse them in any way. To do so is a gross abuse of power and to me an inexcusable act. He was not a good person.

I think Snape had the potential to be a good person, though I don't think that his capacity to love has anything to do with that. But think on how different he may have turned out had he not been bullied by the marauders? How different he'd have been had Lily loved him the way he loved her?

Certainly your actions are what indicates whether you are 'good' or 'bad', but environment and upbringing have a fairly large influence on that. I realise that you can ask the 'what if' questions about any of the characters in the HP books, but it is interesting to do so with Snape because even from Harry's biased point of view, there are flickers of integrity and indicators that he might have been different had he been loved and nurtured himself.

So I'd say that the fact that he loved Lily doesn't make him a good person; but that his capacity to love, along with a more caring environment (where as a result his self-worth would have been higher) indicates that he could have been.

Oh, wow. I have so much to say on this topic, because this was definitely a turning point in the whole series for me. In book one, I hated Snape. I hated him for the obvious reasons---he seemed to be nothing more than just a mean, hateful man. I saw absolutely no reason at all for him to act the way he was acting. As the series grew, I just sort of developed the attitude that it was quite possible that he was still a Death Eater and that all of his actions pointed to him working for Voldemort and against the Order.

The thing that always got me was how he managed to do little things here and there to make me stop and think, "Well, maybe not..." When I found out about the Marauders and their bullying, I started to see a few reasons why his behavior may or may not be justified. He was also doing things here and there to help Dumbledore and his cause that made me think better of the fact that he may still be a Death Eater. It was a battle between the good points and the bad points in his life. I started to see a bitter man whose good points were buried deep down inside of him. He seemed so angry at the world, and most of that was coming out in his words/actions.

It was only in book six when I finally decided, for no other reason than the fact that my instincts told me the good should outweigh the bad, Snape had to be a good man. Even throughout the unbreakable vow in book six, I just knew he had to have a reason behind all of his descisions. In the end, I think it was Snape's bitterness with all that life had dealt him that forced him to make a lot of the decisions he did make. Love alone is not enough to justify being good, as even the bad can learn to love, but it was the fact that the love justified a lot of the bad decisions he'd made. The rest of the decisions I'd chalk up to pure bitterness mixed with a little Slytherin qualities. I don't think Snape was a bad guy at all.

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Just as an afterthought, I thought I'd add this: Anna Greingoth is named after Severus Snape, simply because of how I ended up feeling about the character in the end (I actually thought he was a hero). Grein is pronounced "green" (for him being in Slytherin house), and goth is a tribute to the black hair and clothes. Ironically enough, his love for Lily is also why Anna's mom, Bella Montez Greingoth, is in Gryffindor, yet her father, Alexander Salazar Greingoth, is a Slytherin.

I don't disagree that he did do things to help out the 'good' side, but that does not erase the other actions. As I said, to me his treatment of the students/children is inexcusable.

I also agree that his childhood had a bearing on his personality. However, he was already beginning to hang out with the 'bad crowd' and participate in darker magic whilst Lily and he were still friends, well before James. He chose that himself, so I don't think it can be totally or even mostly blamed on non-reciprocated love. Yes the bullying was a factor. But he also did his fair share of nasty things to others as well don't forget. I believe the biggest influence was his family.

But my main point now: as I said before, it's what you do that determines who you are. I can totally understand that he was partly a product of his environment, and outside factors - in no way disputing that. But. You can chose to rise above and not give in to baser natures. Not perpetuate the cycle. Not be like you father (in this case) and believe people are below you and are therefore worthy of abuse. It doesn't make it ok.

Eg. A child watches their parents steal. They grow up to do the same. Influenced and a learned behavior perhaps, but that child still knows it's against the law. (Bad example I know. >.< I'm tired.) Vegetarian vampires perhaps? *snickers*

There is a choice.

Well I am sort of torn between the nature vs nurture debate to be honest. I mean on one hand I am my own person who can be defined by my actions, but on the other hand I am a product of my family. I do and say things because it was how I was taught and its things my family believes in. I mean I am Tisha, but then I am a woman, and then an African-American. So its like I'm an individual thats part of a larger group and I can move in and out of it you know. I dunno if that makes sense.

So to be honest I think Snape was a good person that just made some bad choices. I mean well think James and Sirius were good people, but look it how they tormented Snape. It took two of them to gang up and bully one person. I've never thought bullying was ok. But we call them good guys bcuz of what they did later in life. Well why can't Snape be good bcuz of what he did later in life.

Now do I think he was mean and rotten to his students? Yes he was, but think I thought McGonagall was sort of severe too without all the name calling and such.

No I don't think his ability and capacity to love made him a good or bad person. I mean serial killers can love.

Ooh, this is a great topic!

In general, I don't like the black or white concept of 'good-guy' or 'bad-guy', because in reality people tend to be broader than that, having multiple layers and demensions. That whole, 'good folks who do bad things' and 'bad folks who do good things' thing.

I think it depends, also, on what you define as love. Love is such an ambiguous word, carrying a lot of different meanings for a lot of different people.

H'mm...well, I started off having an actual opinion.

That is so true, what defines a good person or a bed person? I mean can you still be good if you hit someone's car and don't leave a note? Are you still a bad person if you donate to Goodwill?

Great topic, great forum! I'm excited!

I don't think his ability to love Lily made him a good person. Neither do I think that his youthful choices to participate with Dark arts-- the only folks who accepted him, for what it's worth -- made him a bad person. Many have said it and I'll reiterate- people (and well drawn characters) are rarely so black-or-white. Even Dumbledore... we tend to forget that he was hardly an 'all good' guy, and I think he recognized a lot of himself in Snape, which is why he was able to trust Severus when no one else quite did.

Snape's true character is evident in his ability to eschew the doctrine of hate and violence that the death eaters and Voldemort embraced and risk his own safety to stop the genocide and terror acts that caused the death of his own unrequited beloved and countless others. Would he have given up on Voldemort's campaign and turned spy if not for Lily's death? Possibly not... but maybe he would have. Something else could have caused him to change his perspective, because he had a conscience. I'm not saying he was a greasy Snape treat with a completely fluffy marshmallow center. He was often abusive and often unfair, petty, and very wounded.

But he was compelling, redeemable and sympathetic -- not for his ability to love so much as the fact that he displayed an active conscience and therefore grew in his personal arc as a result.

I contend that therefore conscience, not love, was his salvation and made him a... well, not 'good' person, but a person with redeeming qualities.

ok here are my views and they might cause a few debates,

When Snape was at Hogwarts he was teased and basically bullied by James, Lupin Sirus and Peter which must have affected him, and before he went to Hogwarts he was friends with Lilly and had grown attatched to her and her sister made fun of him so he didn't really start with any luck did he?

Ok i agree when Harry started at Hogwarts Snape was mean and seemed evil beyond mesure but, time and time again he proved otherwise, and i think if you look behind the mask he put on it was for the love of Lilly he had to put on that act because he was conected to the Dark lord and a pure blood and she was a muggle. Ok maybe that is not right but he might of felt it better than to hurt her, i mean he loved her enough to protect her son with out anyone knowing but Dumbledore.

I think sometimes poor Snape gets branded in a way that he shouldn't yes he was mean to Harry, Ron and Hermione but in the end he did help save the lives of many.

I got made fun of too. I didn't start a career in killing people. I'm not saying the Marauders were right, but I don't really agree with blaming Snape's Death Eater life on the actions of a bunch of obnoxious teenagers. They can't be held completely accountable.

Here's my take on Snape: The Snape Lily befriended loved Lily. Snape still has that part of himself inside - a friendlier side, a side that isn't that cruel.

But even though Snape renounced his ways, he is still very cruel in the books. The Death Eater part of him wasn't absent either - no, he didn't kill anymore, but the way he treated Harry, Neville, and others was horrible.

Still, he did have a good side to him, a side that was truly redeeming. I think that's also who Harry named his son after - after who Snape might have been.

But in all fairness i was looking at it from the fiction point of view. I myself was bullied all through my school life and it has made no affect on me, but it does some, some people get bullied when they are young and think that it is the right way of life, this could of happened for Snape also.

ok first of sorry if this makes no sense.

I agree that just because James and friends bullied him does not give him reason to become a death eater and kill people however, I do belive that the way he was treated in school resulted in the resent he felt towards Harry what with him being so similar to his dad in many ways (except the whole bully part). I also think that if it wasnt for Snapes love for Lily his attitdue towards Harry would of been alot worse, After all it was sort of his love for Lily that spured on his final act of helping Harry out in the Deathly Hallows.
Going back to the him being bullied in school, like i said it gave him NO excuse as to where he lead his life but there is the slight thought of perhaps if he was accepted more in school by James and the rest of the mauraders then maybe just maybe he wouldnt of taken the path he did, there is a chance that he chose to take the path of dark purly because he felt like he belonged and was accepted whereas if he was allowed to be proper friends with Lily as well as the mauraders then there could of been a chance that he would of been on the right side of the fight and perceived as one of the "good" guys all along.
You have to look at the big picture though: If he wasnt the person he is then where would the big story be in the end after all there has to be at least on bad good guy (or should that be a good bad guy) in every story to make it interesting

Ok im done now i think, again i appologise if none of that made sense but thats how i feel about the situation

I'd go further and say that this actually kept him alive. It's easy to love someone who's dead, no one can take it away, you don't have any relationship conflicts (he never runs the risk to become like his father). So he can be obsessed with his childhood dream, and this works, because he will never get what he wants and loose interest.
It's a strange idea, however, time is split, she stays the twenty year old girl, while he grows older and older.

And yes, I don't think he's a good person (while I don't think much of good and evil categories, anyway), luckily, he's not good, I like this antagonism.

Oh geez, this whole thread is one big sociology debate Quite honestly, I think that there is no real way to say whether or not Snape's upbringing, or his own actions, made him the way he was. In my opinion (and this is JUST my opinion) nature vs. nuture is really combined--we aren't ONE way because we were born that way, but we aren't another way just because we were raised like that. I truly believe it is a mixture of both.

We could go on and on about nature vs. nuture, but here is my two cents: I always believed Snape was a good guy. Why, I'm not exactly sure I honestly never really had an opinion on Snape until the fifth book, or thats the first time I REMEMBER having an opinion on him, and I honestly felt really bad for him and the way the Marauders picked on him. This is just my own personal belief, but I feel that there is just no excuse for anyone to poke fun at someone just for the heck of it. Just because the Marauders were more popular and more accepted at school than he was didn't give them the right to harass him and embarrass him in front of everyone. That, I think, definitely affected his character in his adult life and made him rather bitter. You have to think of it in his shoes--if someone continuously made fun of you for seven straight years, wouldn't you be a little mad at the world as well? Obviously you could say that no, you wouldn't, but that just helps some people to understand him a bit more.

But I am also not saying that how he treated the students was right. Students are supposed to trust their teachers, not fear them. They're supposed to be mentors who guide them into making smart life choices with their careers, but we never see Snape helping anyone (except maybe the occassional Slytherin) or influencing anyone's lives at all. I think it was a bit of abuse of power--now that SNAPE was a teacher, he had the opportunity to control people in a way that he couldn't when he was at school. He probably felt a bit like the Marauders and felt a bit of pride in that and the way that he had the upper hand over other people.

I personally think that he wasn't a truly bad guy and had a bit of goodness in his heart, because he DID do little things throughout the whole series that showed he has some kind of mortal conscious. Even if it was for the wrong side--like the case with Malfoy--he DID think of others occassionally. Back to the Malfoy example, I feel that Snape knew that Malfoy would get in loads of trouble on all different angles if he followed through on Voldemort's plan to have him kill Dumbledore, so Snape took the burden rather than let Malfoy suffer through it.

I also agree that the fact that Harry was Lily's son helped him a bit in Snape's eyes. Snape still hated Harry, yes, because there were times when even Harry was at fault with Snape and probably just made his hatred for him even worse, but if he hadn't been Lily's son he'd probably have been dead by the first book, since Snape wouldn't have bothered to save him from Quirrel during that Quidditch match

I never thought snape was bad. I always thought he was just a bitter old man, when Quirrel (never looked at the spelling for that) said that snape was trying to save Harry in the Sorcers Stone with a counter curse for his broom-remember- I was like O.O. And Snape was never the bad guy for me, he just did bad things.

When Dumbledore said that James saved Snape and he could never forgive him for that I didn't understand until I read HBP and I loved Snape. I just wanted to give him a hug. But Is love enough? Yes I think so.. I think the fact that he loved Lily enough to keep her son-the one she had with his enemy- safe is enough to make him good. His patronus is the same as Lilys, he was obviously extreemly devoted to her and even as a deatheater he asked Voldemort to spare her life.

Snape was obviously one of those self rightous people, he sent Lily away when se was picking up for him and he hated James for saving him.... Hello the guy is just troubled nothing more. He does have bad Habits, like sneering and popping up in weird places and he always seems to be on the wrong side but I think he's good. He was playing both sides of th fence -good&evil- and he eventually chose.

It's the choices you make that define you, Snape made bad coices in the past but his whole Character was re-written and we saw him, the real heartbroken Snape who cared for Lily Potter and watched over her orphaned son.

*huggles Snape*

I didn't read through everything that was posted here. I just wanted to say that maybe a distinction should be made between "good person" and "nice person". Snape is often nasty and cruel in the way he treats his students, but that doesn't mean he is "bad" in the sense the other Death Eaters are. He experienced a reformation. I think that, When he realized that the Prophecy refered to Lily's son, that opened his eyes to how bad the DEs and his own fascination with the Dark Arts really were. -And then (with Dumbledore's help) he came over to the "good" side.

Heres the gist, Severus Snape grew up at Hogwarts as a Slytherin which caused him to be mentally disturbed hhaving Slytherin values. When lost the only girl he ever loved because of his own stupidity letting his slytherin ways slip and later for good from a broken promise that brought her to an early death that was partly his fault he became a mentally tortured person for the rest of his life. He went over to the good side in memory of Lily and mistreated Harry because his looks being Lilys son reminded him everyday of of his tortured love for the disceased Lily Potter, this is what also made him bitter as a teacher at Hogwarts.

Now judge Severus Snape as you will

I really think you have a problem with Slytherins or something peace and love dahling

Being a Slytherin didn't mentally disturb Snape at all. He called Lily a mudblood out of anger that she had seen him being picked on and humiliated. He didn't believe those things for one second. He was a half and half and Snape was arrogant enough to honestly believe that he was the best thing since sliced bread. He loved her with ever fiber of his being so I don't believe for a second he thought any less of Lily bcuz she was a muggleborn

That man died for the woman that he loved.

He didn't take anything out on all non-Slytherins. He never gave Hermione a bad mark because she was a Gryffindor, and he gave Crabbe and Goyle bad marks bcuz they were stupid.

Being a Slytherin didn't have anything to do with what side he was on

Sorry, I was partially wrong and what I meant about the Slytherin thing is that he would not have even thought to call Lily a mudblood when he was embarrassed had he not been in Slytherin (just my opinion). I know Snape never saw Lily as less being muggleborn.
Calling Lily mudblood may have been the straw that broke the camels back but his will to want to become a death eater and the things he did with his Slytherin freinds with his facination for the Dark Arts really disturbed her, and this is depicted in the book of what drove Snape and Lily apart from the get go.

I think that Snape was a good person, he was just led down the wrong path. it really makes you wonder the kind of things his mother would have given him to read when he was a child that could make someone so greatly want to be part of a dark society, such as voldemort's. I believe the main thing to remember with Snape, is that he probably thought he would impress Lily by becoming a fully blown death eater and that losing her practically destroyed him. he is unncessarily cruel to the students, but i find it interested that because he has been void of affection for so long that he doesn't himself know how to give it.

In my opinion, Snape wasn't a bad man. Yes, he made some really bad choices, but we all do. Later on though, he changed his ways. I actually liked Snape in the end of the 7th book.

But no, love is not enough.

I personally believe everyone has good inside of them, but it can get corrupted as time goes by because of others in your life and your experiences. Nature vs. nurture, the neverending debate. For Snape, it's clearly both.

I never was sure about him, but ever since book 5 I KNEW he loved Lily. I told my Harry Potter obsessed friend and she said I was crazy to believe that but when she read book 7 she let me laugh at her (I couldn't help but laugh for a few seconds). J.K said the Prisoner of Azkaban revealed a lot about what happens in Deathly Hallows, all unintentionally.
When I read book 5 and realized Snape's love, I saw PoA again... in that scene where Lupin is transforming near the end and he become werewolf and Snape comes bursting out, he started to snarl something to Harry (what exactly I forget) but when he hears the snarls behind him he turns around and he held out his arms in front of the trio. Harry was right behind him. HE WAS PROTECTING THEM. He was protecting Harry. For ages I couldn't figure out why - he was petty enough to degrade them all the time in front of everyone in classes, yet combining this with things like threatening Quirrel, attempting his counter-curse when Quirrel was trying to kill Harry in the Quiddich game... it didn't make sense why he wanted to save Harry, it was clear he hated his father. The only other reason could've been his mother and it was made clear she was a kind woman who "sees things in you that you never see" (quote from Lupin in PoA). To me that was enough to know there was some hope for Snape, seeing that in PoA and right where the memory cut off in Order of the Phoenix (the book at least)

Snape was abused, he was picked on, alone, just not "normal" enough. Based on his childhood and growing up being centered around this, he did become petty and lashed back at the innocent because he was treated the same way as a kid; he never did anything wrong, he didn't choose to be who he was. He became callous because that's all he knew - people were callous to him, so he became that way.
Snape being able to love just proves that we all aren't totally bad people - we are born with good but it gets corrupted along the way, like I said. The fact Snape loved Lily and that was strong enough to protect Harry, the (sorry for the word I chose next) product of what he hated most - the son of the only woman he loved and the man he loathed. It was Snape's love that was the death of him in Deathly Hallows.
(and if I recall correctly, Voldemort killed him because Snape wouldn't give information about Harry's whereabouts? It was something to do with information relating to the Order at least, right? I haven't read this book since summer '07 so my memory is kind of foggy)

So personally, yes he was nasty, but he was good because his death represented sacrifice. His sacrifice was the result of love.
But he was good, deep down, from the beginning, with or without loving Lily. Him being good was only seen through Lily's love, though.

If that makes any sense...

I totally get you're explanation Malfoyz, and looking at it that way love is enough because ultimately he turned out to be a good man. I fyou can't say love is reason enough then you can't forgive, for if you could you would look at the big picture that Severus in the end gave Harry the memory that ultimately led to the distruction of the of the Horocrux within himself. No matter what someone does one should forgive them and if they turn ou to be a greater man than you thought even if it is purely past events in their life that made them that way they are still good for things they did do.
In Snapes case I believe love is reason enough.

(I've only skimmed this over because it's late night, so if I'm repeating ideas, I'm sorry xD)



Snape is human. (Well technically, he's a wizard, but that's besides the point LOL) Humans make mistakes, and we are all human. We all make mistakes, we all do things to get accepted, it's just a part of who we are. Some people have varying levels of caring, there's always that one that will claim 'I don't care what anyone thinks!' but I'm sure that one person can have someones opinion that can make or break them. We crave approval. And to get that approval, we can go several millions of different ways.

The point of all this? It's late and I like to rant. Otherwise xD lol, the point is Snape had few people that could give him that approval. Most of all, he craved the approval of Lily, a friend he deeply admired, and Dumbledore, who he recognized as someone whose opinion could be right to the very core. He thought he'd be liked if he was part of the gang that hated James, like Lily did, but he made a mistake and went the wrong way. And then he was angry at Harry because quite frankly, Lily was no longer on his side after that terrible mistake.

People can do anything for that love, or that approval or acceptance, even all the things Snape did. It's understandable, it's human, it's justified, but all those things don't spell out morally right.

But don't worry, I still love him xD